Long Time Cranking

[treesimon 0]

Hi

Ive spent time looking through previous posts but cant find anything that similar to my problem.

 

Over the last 3 days when i start the car for the first time after its not been started after 12hrs + It takes about 2 turns of the key to get it to fire. roughly 10 sec each turn of the key.

 

As soon as it runs its fine. Switch it off leave it 4-6 hrs and it starts first turn no problems.

 

The only thing changed recently- within the last week was the fuel pressure reg. From peugeot dealer at £98, like for like rating and part no. But ran find without problem for 3 days, so i don't think thats got anything to do with it.

 

 

Also just so everyone knows Its had a brand new(not a recon) airflow meter within the last 3 months. Brand new coil and ignition amp( genuine items) recondition dizzy(H&H) and recent leads, cap, rotor arm, leads, plugs.

 

Today i started at work at 6am and finished at 6pm so it had not been run for 12hrs. I decided before starting it to remove the fuel rail feed hose to see if fuel was in the rail and hose checking it had'nt either leaked or seeping back into the tank, found fuel in the line and rail,all ok- Also through doing this, depressurising the system when i turned the key to the third position i could here the Fuel pump kick in to pressurise the system. Meaning the tachometeric relay is working.

 

Guess what it fired the first turn within 5 sec's. Im sure the problem has'nt gone away i'll find out in the morning when i start her up again.

 

Ive checked battery voltage and is good 12.4v and starter sounds healthy. Recent compression test showed good results all within 1 bar of each other.

 

Anyone got any ideas what it could be?

[kyepan 291]

having had something quite similar, I would say get a gauge on there and check what the pressure is actually doing prior during the long cranking period. Gauges with fittings cost maybe 15 quid from ebay.

 

If this is an 8v, the pump will prime the system for a couple of seconds before starting, to get rid of any residual pressure drop over the intervening period since the car was last run.

 

Put the gauge inline between the inlet to the rail (LHS) and the inlet feed to the rail from the fuel filter. Once you know what the fuel pressure is doing, you'll know why it won't start.

 

My guess is it will be either.

 

1) ecu not priming, this can be heard and tested on a multimeter.

2) Non return valve in the pump is on it's way out, and too much pressure is lost in the line over time.

 

 

check my old posts if you want more info.

 

Cheers

 

J

[DamirGTI 344]

Ditto , same issue for last few months but only when it's really cold early in the morning it takes few attempts to start it up but i simply couldn't be bothered to investigate what's wrong .. all the fueling/ignition bits are new or replaced with good un's so i don't quite have an idea from where to start "digging" in order to fix this

 

Damir

[Mandic 0]

Could be simply down to fuel not evaporating as fast when cold. So basically making very lean conditions combined with cold air inside combustion chamber and not igniting. But this can also be caused by lack of fuel at start up, for whatever reason (regulator, pump, filter, dirt, wet spark plug ....)

 

Cheers

 

Ziga

[DamirGTI 344]

Could be simply down to fuel not evaporating as fast when cold.

Ziga

 

 

Been thinking about that might be one of the reasons , especially because pump petrol is a bit crap quality over here and the quality varies quite a bit from on to another pump station , and it's even fuel from the same refinery (INA)

 

Dunno if it's possible , they might be selling summer blend (getting rid of the old , unsold reserves of summer blend fuels) during the winter time and vice versa .. hence the different evaporation rates

 

Damir

[Mandic 0]

INA was never particularly famous for fuel quality, that's for sure

 

Try to switch supplier, maybe it cures the problem.

[DamirGTI 344]

Yes , INA is utter crap sadly though , they have monopoly for selling fuel in entire country (even other pump stations such as OMV are selling their fuel !! with the exception of 100 RON unleaded which is imported OMV fuel ..) ... so i don't have a choice , nearest OMV pump station is roughly 50km's away from my local so that's 2x 50km's just for filling up ..

 

The best fuel by far was Hungarian , imported MOL refinery 98 RON unleaded , but it's drawn off the pump stations because of the low demand for this type of fuel ... at least they said so ..

 

Scuse the OT boys carry on ..

 

Damir

Edited February 16, 2010 by DamirGTI

[treesimon 0]

So far since i started this topic it hasnt done it again. Everytime ive started the car its fired up fine within a few seconds of cranking. So i havent got to the bottom of it. i cant really complain about it. Strange as i did it three mornings in a row then just stopped playing up.

Cheers for your replies!

[kyepan 291]

So far since i started this topic it hasnt done it again. Everytime ive started the car its fired up fine within a few seconds of cranking. So i havent got to the bottom of it. i cant really complain about it. Strange as i did it three mornings in a row then just stopped playing up.

Cheers for your replies!

were they particularly cold or damp mornings?

 

J

[treesimon 0]

were they particularly cold or damp mornings?

 

J

 

No not damp at all and temperature wise above freeze. I'd have to rule out temp as over xmas/early jan when it really was cold it started fine.

[kyepan 291]

how have you been getting on with this, did you check any of the things people have suggested, or has it been behaving itself.

[DamirGTI 344]

.. mines kinda , "sorted itself" as well dunno how/why , but it's been fine for last few days and i haven't tried anything in order to fix this issue ..

 

Damir

[treesimon 0]

how have you been getting on with this, did you check any of the things people have suggested, or has it been behaving itself.

 

 

Its strange really it has not done it since i started this topic. Didnt touch anything, apart from checking to make sure there was fuel in the rail after being left for 13hrs. Im sure it will come back at some point, then i'll start digging in to it. Just need the fault to be hard on first.

Im planning on getting a new tach-Relay and SAD in the near future. Not because i think they are faulty, just because im going through everything and they are the last few pieces to change.

Edited February 22, 2010 by treesimon

[DamirGTI 344]

I already tried fuel pump and SAD swap before when i had same cranking issue ... and spare fuel pump as well - didn't make any difference at all ..

 

Only thing which has fixed this problem once was replacing the ignition amp - Marelli for Bosch one ... with the Marelli amp it was hard to start when left over 24h or in really cold freezy morning , with Bosch item it started straight away ...

 

Damir

[treesimon 0]

Just a update, yesterday morning I started the car up after it had been sat for 24hrs.

 

I turned the key to just before the start position (normally i hear the fuel pump prime for a couple of seconds) I didnt this time.

 

Anyway started the car, Kept cranking over didnt fire. Switched back to off then to just before start position(no prime sound) did it again-Primed this time.

 

turned key- Fired straight away.

 

Im only guessing from this that occasionally the tachy relay will not prime the fuel lines or not giving the signal to the pump to run.

 

Think it time to buy a new one- anyone know how much pug charges?

[DamirGTI 344]

Think it time to buy a new one- anyone know how much pug charges?

 

A good spare one will do picked up a few from my local scrappy for spares , the one which is currently on the car is from Opel/Vauxhall GSI ..

 

There's a fair few other cars from the late 80's/90's with the same , identical type of tachy relay apart from PSA group cars (i wrote the list of potential relay donors here some time ago ..)

 

Damir