Solid Lifters

[DRTDVL 4 1 Cars]

Just wondering what needs to be done to change to solid lifters.

 

I don't know anything about what needs to be done, all i know is i'm making peak power at the rev limit (7500) and i've been reading that i run the risk of lifter float going higher than that and i'd need to switch to solid lifters.

 

Is it also correct that you can run upto 8,000 rpm without needing to play with the bottom end?

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

I ran my 1.9 mi16 up to a 7800 limit on high-lift cams and standard followers, under the advice that was about the limit. So the advice seems about the same - assuming you mean an mi bottom end (not sure if an 8v crank, without the additional balancer webs, would like sustained running at 8k without getting 'flex').

 

I run solid lifters now in order to run to 8.5k, but I didn't build this engine. I believe the main thing is that solid lifters need shimming to get the clearances right, so they're a bit more hassle to set up. I guess it depends upon your cam, but I certainly didn't have any problems with 11.5mm lift cams and 7800rpm on my 1.9 mi with standard bottom end (albeit with ARP rod bolts).

 

How badly does it need to be 8k+?

 

edit: Sorry, I should add, obviously the cams aren't too aggressive a profile - my understanding is that if they ramp up/down quickly and your cam manufacturer is recommending race/double valve springs, that's when you're likely being advised to run solid followers too. I would extend to 7800 and see if the engine is still making more power, if so then give solid lifters a thought. If it's tailing off above 7500 I wouldn't bother - mine regularly had a hammering on the limiter (competition car) and I never saw any problems.

Edited February 11, 2010 by brumster

[DRTDVL 4 1 Cars]

Sorry - yes this is for an MI16 alloy block engine.

 

This is the dyno graph: (the dyno is known to run low hp figures, but i don't really care about the figure.

 

 

I know it's starting to flatten out, but it would be nice to have a little more rpm.

 

We arn't sure what cam it's running from what we think it's factory. It's running a PeterT chip also (blue line vs the red factory chip line).

Edited February 11, 2010 by DRTDVL

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Well, talking me personally, I'd just extend the limiter a few hundred rpm be nice to check with the cam manufacturer though on what their recommendations are. But, like you said, it's starting to plateau so I'm not sure I'd go to the expense of solid lifters just for the sake of it... just think of anything above 7800 as eating into a "reliability buffer" . Use it if you want, but imagine for every second spent over limit "X" you take n hours of life out of the engine. "X" is up for debate, of course, but on my mi16 I put it at 7800 from advice of someone I respect, who's built a lot more engines than I have! Personally, I'd make that your hard limit on a standard, ARP'd bottom end. Without the ARPs, I'm not sure I'd even push it that far.

[DRTDVL 4 1 Cars]

I'm just starting to work out a budget for the engine build.

 

New cams (thinking Peter's stage 2 solid intake cam and stage 1 exhaust solid cam), ARP bolts, Quads, aftermarket ecu, dry sump, etc... are all on the cards at the moment - just want an idea of what i'm looking at to get it all.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

I'm just starting to work out a budget for the engine build.

 

New cams (thinking Peter's stage 2 solid intake cam and stage 1 exhaust solid cam), ARP bolts, Quads, aftermarket ecu, dry sump, etc... are all on the cards at the moment - just want an idea of what i'm looking at to get it all.

 

Ah, I'm sure Peter will be able to comment then when he sees this. Certainly the best person to advise on his cam. If you're on a very standard bottom end, I'd certainly be careful pushing it to 8k!

[DRTDVL 4 1 Cars]

Bottom end - I'll be asking about later after I've searched and harassed via pm a few people.

[engine killer 6]

dear all,

 

i am thinking of converting my xu9j4's hydraulic system to solid lifter too but don't really know what i have to buy and from where, can anyone give me some hint? thanks.

 

is cat cam the way to go?

[M_R_205 5 1 Cars]

Im running solid lifters on my MI at the moment, you need cams with suitable profiles for them to work properly, also the engine seems much quieter top end than it did on the hydro lifters, any good cam company will sell suitable cams but i could only seem to get the lifters off Kent cams, were around the £400 mark if i remember correctly, i then got some cams off Peter T off here

 

Hope this helps

Paul.

[petert 588]

There's a couple of different ways to convert the hydraulic lifter but I wouldn't like to supply the parts unless I was shimming the head myself. You're best to buy new lifters from Arrow which will be lighter anyway. The cams I sold MR205 were a new billet inlet and a reground exhaust. Being solid, it's possible to get away with a reground exhaust as the material can be taken up by the shims. This helps keep the price down considerably.

 

How are they going MR205? Are you pleased with the profiles/performance? They were Stage III inlet and Stage I exhaust from memory. What other engine specs. did you use?

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

I was running hydraulic lifters to 8500rpm without any issue's at all on Reground Kent Cam's 10 years ago, I know allot of people said 7500 was the limit back then but I proved them all wrong

This is not a make believe figure either, Recorded from the ECU (Luminition) at the time and a Stack Rev counter.

[DRTDVL 4 1 Cars]

After reading Cam's gti-6/mi16 build and the comments:

 

Until the cams have bedded into the lifters they can "microweld" together under high load (e.g. at low revs) which will then rip lumps out of the cam/followers. I've a close mate who would never use Newman cams again because of problems in this area, but they are still going and sell lots of cams so I guess they have sorted this problem out now.

 

Is it possible to run roller lifters on the pug heads instead of solid lifters?

 

 

Peter: Would you Stage 3 intake and Stage 1 exhaust be a good setup for Rally or is it better suited to a track car?

Edited February 11, 2010 by DRTDVL

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

Is it possible to run roller lifters on the pug heads instead of solid lifters?

 

I'm ready to be told otherwise, but I can't see how there would be the room to physically get a roller lifter arrangement in there?

[petert 588]

The 7500 limit came from the '92 Bathurst Production car race, where Citroen cheated and fitted a 7500 chip to their BX16V's. So they were bouncing on the limiter down Conrod Straight and ended up with cracked valve guides. For those not familar, it's a 1.9Km straight, in the days before the chicane was added.

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

Great bit of trivia Peter!

[M_R_205 5 1 Cars]

There's a couple of different ways to convert the hydraulic lifter but I wouldn't like to supply the parts unless I was shimming the head myself. You're best to buy new lifters from Arrow which will be lighter anyway. The cams I sold MR205 were a new billet inlet and a reground exhaust. Being solid, it's possible to get away with a reground exhaust as the material can be taken up by the shims. This helps keep the price down considerably.

 

How are they going MR205? Are you pleased with the profiles/performance? They were Stage III inlet and Stage I exhaust from memory. What other engine specs. did you use?

 

Hi Peter, there running great, i get a real surge of power around 3.5-4K which takes me right up to about 8k, unfortunately due to time and money restrictions im yet to take the car down to emerald to get the ecu properly mapped and the cams adjusted, however even as they are now the car is very swift

 

Paul.

[mmt 15]

My Mi16 runs hyd. lifters and it almost dies above 6300 rpm.(no limiter)

 

I have seen Mi´s on hyd lifters run 8000 rpm on the dyno without any problems.

 

Could it be that the valve springs are worn?

 

Is there some kind of "magic" max rpm that hyd lifters can manage?

[opticaltrigger 52]

I remember alot of noise being made about anti pump liffters years ago on ford engines but I dont know if such a thing is available for the Pugeot.

As far as a magic RPM for hydraulics goes there isnt one really and any variations from one motor to another will be caused by a multitude of differences such as oil viscosity,flow rate,tollerences,etc,etc.

Personaly I do think that once your into the 7000/8000 RPM region your up towards the limit of a hydraulics abillity to track the cam efficiently,and the rate of decay of efficiency will be increasing by ever grater amounts with ever smaller amounts of RPM.So I guess if you think your valve train will flow effectivley at 8000 and over your really into solid teritory if maximum efficiency up there is your goal but I think it's tollerable for short bursts.

 

All the best

O.T.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Indeed. Honda have solid followers on the 2 litre lump in the S2000, so I'm guessing if they couldn't get hydraulics to work at those sorts of numbers no-one can

[Mandic 0]

I believe it's down to the design of the lifter, valve train, weight of the components and their intended lifespan. For instance, GT3 RS has redline at 8300RPM and uses hydraulic lifters, it's dry sumpped though.

[Sandy 191]

I've had problems with valve float on XU 16v engines around 7500rpm mapping on many occasions. It's unlikely to be springs in every case, because at least one of them was on proper double springs with perfect pressures. It may be the weight of the oil filled lifter in some cases, but I would bet that pumping is a problem. With pumping you need the oil delivery to have an issue and obviously a number of factors might limit the oil delivery in different engines. Many later engines on the 6 bar spring will see over 100psi oil pressure, while the older 5 bar engines aren't running that high.

[Mandic 0]

Sandy,

 

Any experience with RS lifters in earlier S16/Mi16 heads?

 

Thanks!

[Sandy 191]

Er, no, but a miserable experience of earlier lifters sitting on the retainers in an RS head!

[opticaltrigger 52]

I agree with you Sandy,I think the only way to offset the problem is with increased oil pressure and flow or perhaps that in conjunction with a lighter grade.But I think some R&D is needed there.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on it but my feeling is still that at around 8000 your into pumping/cavitation issues with any hydraulic setup really,and the losses in the liffter at those speeds,in terms of valve timing,must surely be becoming substantial enough to be of serious concern especialy if you need to pull anouther 1000 RPM or so on top.

 

All the best

O.T.

[mmt 15]

You lost me there guys

 

More prone to float in low pressure/flow engines. Less prone to float when using lighter grade oil.