S16 Or Gti6 Manifold?

[sub205 5]

i'm currently in the process of gathering parts for my new 16v engine.

as far as i know the 163ps manifold is simple and has less torque downstairs than the 150ps manifold which switches between 2 systems.

 

but whats about the top-end-power?

 

is the 150 one capable of delivering the same power as the 163 ?

what about the v6 throttle body?

 

i would prefer the 150bhp one but my target is 185-190bhp with my engine.

[welshpug 1,675]

V6 throttle body is the same casting as the RFS one

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Why would you want the S16 Inlet manifold, Poor design, Huge, Very small T/B and makes any maintenance under the hood difficult

The GTi6 one makes good power and on the last Mi I did with the GTi6 inlet it made the same power & Torque as a car with 45mm Throttle Bodies, Same rollers as well

[de Noir 0]

with S16 manifold you would have to fit the whole low/high revs switching system:

- actuators that physically switch between low/high revs, 2 of them

- vacuum valve which operates those actuators, and is 'speaking' with ECU when to open/close

- wiring, I guess you would have to take the right signal for this to operate correctly, from somewhere, at some point

- piping

 

everything listed very prone to malfunction

 

why would you want to do that at all?

Edited February 9, 2010 by MH_

[welshpug 1,675]

- actuators that physically switch between low/high revs, 2 of them factory items easy to replace if needed.

 

- vacuum valve which operates those actuators, and is 'speaking' with ECU when to open/close simple 12v (or 5v, can't remember) solenoid working on a signal from the ecu based on RPM very easy.

 

- wiring, I guess you would have to take the right signal for this to operate correctly, from somewhere, at some point as above, 12v/5v ecu signal.

 

- piping a few silicone vacuum pipes, never seen a turbo petrol car??

 

 

Nothing at all wrong with it in my opinion, and have yet to see proper proof that bolting on a gti6 inlet gives gains on its own, the only example I have seen made a lot less torque than it should, and a lot less power, but that was on a different RR.

 

 

why not fit a larger throttle body to the RFY inlet?

Edited February 9, 2010 by welshpug

[de Noir 0]

wp

I guess you've never owned an 306 S16

ditto the entusiasm for its inlet system

 

which I do not share with you

 

and turbo petrol car is my daily driver

thanks for asking

 

 

@ sub 205:

 

when you're in doubt, keep it simple

and if you're in position to choose, it's GTI6 all the way

 

cheers

Edited February 9, 2010 by MH_

[DrSarty 99 1 Cars]

S16 system works, but I wouldn't attempt to transplant one. As Miles says the design is very restrictive to certain jobs, such as getting to the key sensors on the TB and side of the head.

 

The GTI6 inlet is a great design. Removing the black, plastic resonator box will change the torque delivery too.

 

But if you're going aftermarket management, you should consider going to ITBs straight off as the difference will be considerable.

[welshpug 1,675]

  MH_ said:

wp

I guess you've never owned an 306 S16

 

no, a zx 16v and a 405 MI16 though.

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

  Miles said:

Why would you want the S16 Inlet manifold, Poor design, Huge, Very small T/B and makes any maintenance under the hood difficult

The GTi6 one makes good power and on the last Mi I did with the GTi6 inlet it made the same power & Torque as a car with 45mm Throttle Bodies, Same rollers as well

 

[sub205 5]

wiring is no problem, i'll simply programm the megasquirt to switch an empty output at a given rpm. poor mans vtec :-)

 

the only question for me is: is a s16 system with a v6 throttle better with torque in low rpms and comparable on higher rpms?

 

sure, the system is more complicated, but i think peugeot did the 163ps-version because they wanted to save some money and make it a bit more reliable. maybe i'm wrong. but i can get the whole system for 100€ and thats well worth a try. i'll try to get an 163 inlet and try it also, but i think this one is not as cheap.

 

what fits better under the 205 bonnet?

[sub205 5]

and another idea: whats about modifying an s16 system as a throttle-body-system?

closing the upper channels, connecting the pedal to the 4 throttles and removing the main throttle?

seems to be possible. anyone tried?

 

a secret throttle body system, no problems with german tüv :-)

[Anthony 1,003]

  sub205 said:

and another idea: whats about modifying an s16 system as a throttle-body-system?

closing the upper channels, connecting the pedal to the 4 throttles and removing the main throttle?

seems to be possible. anyone tried?

It's a while since I've seen the metal part of the S16 inlet manifold, but my immediate issue with your idea is balancing all four throttles - unbalanced and it'll be horrible, made worse by having to keep two throttle cables perfectly in sync. I'm sure there's plenty of other issues with it too.

[sub205 5]

  Anthony said:

It's a while since I've seen the metal part of the S16 inlet manifold, but my immediate issue with your idea is balancing all four throttles - unbalanced and it'll be horrible, made worse by having to keep two throttle cables perfectly in sync. I'm sure there's plenty of other issues with it too.

syncing should me no problem, i got old people that grew up with engines with many carburettors :-)

maybe the best is to buy the staff and look at it when its here. then i can check my options.

[Alastairh 47]

Personally, keep with the GTI6 inlet. It works very well. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

Al

[sub205 5]

  Alastairh said:

Personally, keep with the GTI6 inlet. It works very well. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

Al

personally, all i got at the moment is a 132bhp engine in parts and the cheap manifold that comes with it. so i got all options open at the moment.

[monty69 6]

Road car id go s16 manifold, gti6 for track and simplicity. The gti6 is crap in the low revs, ive owned both s16 and gti6, the s16 had loads of low down pull. I have driven a few s16 that have felt flat due to the acav not working properly, set it up right and it'l be worth it for the road.

[jackherer 543]

My mate has got a 205 2.0 S16 with a 1.9 Mi16 inlet manifold (and ecu, loom, inlet cam and dist cap) which has better low end (and mid range and top end) than a 1.9 Mi16. The inlet on his S16 had been smashed up by the scrapyard when they had it on a forklift so it was built out of necessity but it works so well its there to stay.

[petert 607]

Either will fit in a 205 but given Miles told you what to do, I'd take his advice. The GTi6 manifold has trumpets cast onto the ends of the runners. No such thing on S16 or 1.9L Mi16. That's free hp.

[24seven 104]

Quick on topic question, but Rich, you mentioned that removing the resonator in the '6 manifold changes the torque delivery. In what way? I was always under the impression that it wasn't just there to keep noise down, but also helps with the resonance tuning of the inlet manifold.

[de Noir 0]

  sub205 said:

sure, the system is more complicated, but i think peugeot did the 163ps-version because they wanted to save some money and make it a bit more reliable. maybe i'm wrong. but i can get the whole system for 100€ and thats well worth a try. i'll try to get an 163 inlet and try it also, but i think this one is not as cheap.

 

  monty69 said:

Road car id go s16 manifold, gti6 for track and simplicity. The gti6 is crap in the low revs, ive owned both s16 and gti6, the s16 had loads of low down pull. I have driven a few s16 that have felt flat due to the acav not working properly, set it up right and it'l be worth it for the road.

 

 

 

that's funny

I have owned both in success for almost seven years and never ever noticed S16 being better at anything?

[sub205 5]

  MH_ said:

that's funny

I have owned both in success for almost seven years and never ever noticed S16 being better at anything?

maybe the system was defect and thus not working at low revs?

[DrSarty 99 1 Cars]

You're making work for yourself; it's really not worth it.

 

But if you're determined - which it seems you are - then press on.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

I;ve had both the S16, 2.0 Mi16 when under a year old and in full working condition, Neither where any better low down the the 1.9 one's I had before, But compare it to the RS engine, Well you cannot really.

I will say the 2.0 Mi went well at the top end thou

[de Noir 0]

  sub205 said:

maybe the system was defect and thus not working at low revs?

 

 

When defect, system has no problem with revs, it's having more or less trouble with switching between low and high revs.

This 'switch' happens between 3-4k rpm.

Possible scenarios:

 

Defect actuator(s) or piping - 'switch' is happening slower and engine is having less or more trouble to gain revs.

This is depending on size of puncture on actuators' vacuum membrane or piping.

No problem with sorting pipes though, actuators are irrepairable and most usually sold upon order.

So you need to have at least one spare in your stash.

 

Broken vacuum valve - you do not get 'switch' at all, engine runs fine from idle to 3k and from 4k to redline.

You get literally 'dead engine' gap between 3 and 4k rpm.

It just won't spin above 3k, in a way most similar with hitting the limiter. Except you get it at 3k rpm.

In that case, you can get higher revs only with downshifting from higher gear.

Once you're in 4-7k range everything is fine.

When revs drop below 4k, you're again in that 'dead engine' gap.

 

Now imagine driving this 'thing' when broken.

 

This variable inlet manifold system is without a doubt interesting case of engineering, but in real world it's weak link, adding unwanted complexity to any install. No wonder factory abandoned the idea.

I had to replace everything on my S16... First went the valve, then one actuator, following the other.

 

Nice drive when in order though... But to be honest, GTI6 much better one.

 

It's not worth doing, really.

Keep it simple.

Edited February 10, 2010 by MH_

[rubyna 4 1 Cars]

You have had advice now off people who deals with these engines and components day in day out and have done for many years

(miles, petert) so to not take their advice over people who spout s*ite would be a loss on your part. As said stick with the Gti6 mani

And you wont go wrong..