Gsxr Throttle Bodies

[M3Evo 0]

Think the key to doing a good bike TB setup is (as other people have said) to make sure they're rigidly mounted so that they don't keep going out of balance.

 

Next up is to make a good progressive linkage and at the same time, seperate out the adjustment for each throttle.

 

Here's one I did for a BMW six cyl. To avoid the whole linkage twisting up along the length of the engine, I made a linkage which transmits the opening torque along a 10mm dia bit of stainless steel. All of the throttles can be adjusted individually too which makes setting them up in the first place nice and easy.

 

 

It's a bit by the by really, but this setup made exactly the same power as a similar spec engine running the stock plenum inlet manifold. However, below 3000rpm, this setup made around 60lbft more torque

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

it's been a bit of a trend on here recently for people to slate the diy tb managment projects??

 

in my opinion it is far too easy to throw money at your car and make it a good one, which is all well and good but dont knock others who want to go the opposite route and spend less and do more themselves.

 

yes you could go and buy jenveys and 'better' managment and bolt them straight on no probs, or you could fit bike bodies and diy managment (and do it well given the right resources) but its a choice you need to make yourself.

 

now....i'm gonna contradict myself completly by saying i went back to std inlet from using bike tb's for the exact reasons brought up in this post

 

my excuse being that the car needed so much more doing on it that i couldnt be arsed with the extra hastle of trying to get the engine sorted. if the car was on the road then i think it would be a different story and i would have carried on with it.

 

it can be done, but do you need the hastle? thats the question.

 

nuff said, stick with it liam

[boombang 2]

Well Bikes continued to use carbs for years after cars had abandoned them for closed loop fuel injection (due to cats).

 

Because of how high they rev, therefore how fast injectors have to react. Add on top the low inertia style of bike engines and how quick they'll rev, and a system that fuels on vaccuum and throttle opening rather than processing data makes a lot of sense.

 

Early injection bikes are renowned for being lumpy and not a patch on carb'd setups to ride.

 

As technology progressed they started working better and better.

Edited December 28, 2009 by boombang

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

As with anything, using bike throttle bodies can be done well, and it can be done badly.

 

This is how my good mate Phil did it for our Mi16 track car.

 

 

The Mi16 manifold has been cut down. Then machined adaptors TIG welded on. The silicone hoses are short and the bodies butt right up to the adaptors. The picture was taken half way through the progress of the conversion, what is not there yet is the bracket that rigidly supports the airbox and throttle bodies that comes off the engine block. The throttle quadrant from an Mi throttle body was then adapted to fit to give a decent pedal travel. There is also a second set of injectors in the trumpets that phase in at higher revs.

 

Result 177bhp on Emeralds rollers from a tired (6 years of trackdays and not been apart) standard 1900 Mi engine, and 145lbft of torque. Mapped by Dave Walker and it drives really well, once I've remembered that it doesn't have a turbo and I need to rev it past 6000rpm.

[Cameron 16]

it's been a bit of a trend on here recently for people to slate the diy tb managment projects??

 

in my opinion it is far too easy to throw money at your car and make it a good one, which is all well and good but dont knock others who want to go the opposite route and spend less and do more themselves.

 

yes you could go and buy jenveys and 'better' managment and bolt them straight on no probs, or you could fit bike bodies and diy managment (and do it well given the right resources) but its a choice you need to make yourself.

 

I wouldn't call it a trend, more a group of people with similar views.

Don't get me wrong, people who throw money at their car and buy every bling object they can while paying others to do all the work probably irritate me just as much as bodgers, specially when they take the credit for it (cough MaxPower etc). There's a massive difference between bodgers and those who do things on the cheap, and that is doing a decent job of it. The people who get a cheap set of bike bodies, buy the cheapest MS ECU off eBay and attach them to a sawn-off manifold with some silicone and jubilee clips are the bodgers.. people who exercise their resourcefulness and expertise to make a proper job of it are not.

Edited December 28, 2009 by Cameron

[Sandy 191]

Which Keihins are you using Sandy? (which Honda they from?)

 

Most Bike Bodies are Keihin, the ones we use mostly are from Suzukis (GSXR), the Honda (CBR) ones tend to have central cable attachment, which makes altering the throttle ratio difficult and the outer flanges don't suit fitting solid trumpets so well.

 

Should I do a V6, or maybe an Aygo 3 cylinder (sampled one for the first time today, what an awesome sounding motor for a runabout!); then Triumph may be on the cards!

 

I used to be a bit of a snob about bike TBs, mostly because of all the terrible adaptations I'd seen, but once I realised how well made and suitable some of them are, my view changed. Our adaptations have evolved to be somewhere in cost between basic manifold and hoses set ups and aftermarket bodies such as Jenvey/ATP etc. We had to make it work well, simply because I can't tolerate crap that makes my life harder when it comes to installation and setting up.

[sideways danny 0]

most of them are arguably too small for XUs.

 

 

out of interest, what have you found to be the minimum throttle size the XU responds well to? The vast majority of 2 litre engines i've touched need ~45mm, and i've seriosly struggled to find any bike bodies that come close to that. Think it may have been the GSXR1000 that was 42mm??

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

I wouldn't call it a trend, more a group of people with similar views.

Don't get me wrong, people who throw money at their car and buy every bling object they can while paying others to do all the work probably irritate me just as much as bodgers, specially when they take the credit for it (cough MaxPower etc). There's a massive difference between bodgers and those who do things on the cheap, and that is doing a decent job of it. The people who get a cheap set of bike bodies, buy the cheapest MS ECU off eBay and attach them to a sawn-off manifold with some silicone and jubilee clips are the bodgers.. people who exercise their resourcefulness and expertise to make a proper job of it are not.

 

just call me bodger then!!

 

having had the resources i would have carried on with the conversion and done it right (flanges welded on to the manofold and a decent linkage system).

put it this way i know how it needed to be done but didn't have the right tools (or willingness to pay someone) to do it right hence why i went back to std.

 

i did buy a ms ecu... however not from ebay

 

what i dont get with the different ecu's is what the actual difference is? i mean surely the all do the same job? they stil both use a ve and a spark table ?, is it just that there are not enough people that know how to tune them hence they are turd????

 

anyway im off to make a huge spoiler out of 2 by 4 and a coat hanger

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Here are the Triumph bodies I'm playing around with. 43mm and already built (extremely well BTW) to accept car injectors. They lozenge slightly too, like Batfink's touring car bodies. These will be rigidly mounted as discussed here and the spacing is almost bang on.

 

Currently a machinist I know with a 5-axis CNC is making some short stand-offs like the Jenvey/Weber ones, but as individual items. I'll also get trumpets end mounted, roughly at 100mm length which seems to be the norm. Other trumpet length advice appreciated.

 

These Triumph bodies are very nice pieces of kit, and just require 2 sets (i.e. 6) to make a set of 4. Other sets mean the spares can be used up, and the first set I got cost £18.

 

Edited December 28, 2009 by DrSarty

[sideways danny 0]

what i dont get with the different ecu's is what the actual difference is? i mean surely the all do the same job? they stil both use a ve and a spark table ?, is it just that there are not enough people that know how to tune them hence they are turd????

 

plenty of difference. GEMS based systems for instance have a far quicker refresh rate for crank speed (RPM) than Emerald for instance. GEMS stuff (Omex, AEM, HKS) refreshes every 10 degrees, Emerald every 360 , This gives a better, crisper throttle response. Also differences in Table size, load point adjustment, Tuner tools (anything without a pot-box, is not a good system from a tuner point of view). Some systems give too few options and therefore assume too much (the functions are there, but the ability to change things isn't, as it's often in the background. Most respected tuners wont map MS as it's so unreliable, if they do they have to chase faults and waste a lot of time. For the time, expense and extra effort, just buy something quality to start with

[Galifrey 1]

The beauty of the Triumph bodies is the bolt on flange, making them easier to fabricate a manifold, AND they are true ITB's which also means you can space them to suit the engine, rather than make a manifold to suit, albeit you will need 2 banks to make a decent row of 4. (the price makes this less of an issue).

 

Yes if you get a well built MS with the right options, well setup if will perform well, but there are so many out there with dry joints and other nasty issues, finding a decent one can be a pain.

 

I forgot Suzuki shifted from Mikuni to Keihin, but they do have a secondary set of throttles that needs removing (not difficult).

 

Liking that Setup on Toms car, although I think I would have put the first set of injectors in the inlet port firing into the valve area and the second set in the TB's, however, the setup there will keep the inloet tract nice and cool.

 

To my mind, when you have people who have made a success of Bike bodies, and you have experts like Colin and Sandy using them, you can be convinced they work IF you are willing to take the time to do it properly, or pay the money for the expertise of people who can.

 

Pugpete

 

The difference in ECU's is CPU/Resolution and Software (in the ECU and for programming) from what I have seen, getting a well built MS installed and mapped doesn't save much if you have it professionally done, the cost savings are in the DIY methodology and open source software.

 

Think Windows vs Linux, some will swear Linux is the future and would never touch anything else, but for the majority, Windows or Mac OS is more hassle free.

[danny56712 1]

The beauty of the Triumph bodies is the bolt on flange, making them easier to fabricate a manifold, AND they are true ITB's which also means you can space them to suit the engine, rather than make a manifold to suit, albeit you will need 2 banks to make a decent row of 4. (the price makes this less of an issue).

 

Yes if you get a well built MS with the right options, well setup if will perform well, but there are so many out there with dry joints and other nasty issues, finding a decent one can be a pain.

 

I forgot Suzuki shifted from Mikuni to Keihin, but they do have a secondary set of throttles that needs removing (not difficult).

 

Liking that Setup on Toms car, although I think I would have put the first set of injectors in the inlet port firing into the valve area and the second set in the TB's, however, the setup there will keep the inloet tract nice and cool.

 

To my mind, when you have people who have made a success of Bike bodies, and you have experts like Colin and Sandy using them, you can be convinced they work IF you are willing to take the time to do it properly, or pay the money for the expertise of people who can.

 

Pugpete

 

The difference in ECU's is CPU/Resolution and Software (in the ECU and for programming) from what I have seen, getting a well built MS installed and mapped doesn't save much if you have it professionally done, the cost savings are in the DIY methodology and open source software.

 

Think Windows vs Linux, some will swear Linux is the future and would never touch anything else, but for the majority, Windows or Mac OS is more hassle free.

 

 

replies appreciated but seems to be total matter of opinion and seems to me if have little money and loads time go for bike ones

[sideways danny 0]

i'd get the best ECU you can and retain a stock plenum. Upgrade to bodies of somesort later

[Galifrey 1]

replies appreciated but seems to be total matter of opinion and seems to me if have little money and loads time go for bike ones

 

It's not just opinion, if you think its as easy as cutting down an inlet or welding some tubes onto a flange, attaching some bodies with some tubing and then connecting them up, then I expect a few more "problem with my throttle bodies" threads in future...

 

If you are looking to achieve better than stock performance expect to be spending some money, and a lot of time improving on the stock setup.

 

Lots have used bike carbs for a simple install and a cheap megajolt (which works well) but then come up against the jetting and sorting flat spots etc. Think of this x10 with throttle bodies.

 

Sidewaysdanny speaks a lot of sense, getting an aftermarket ECU running on the stock system first then switching to TB's will at least enable you to get a decent setup electronically first before you throw the TB's into the equation.

[danny56712 1]

It's not just opinion, if you think its as easy as cutting down an inlet or welding some tubes onto a flange, attaching some bodies with some tubing and then connecting them up, then I expect a few more "problem with my throttle bodies" threads in future...

 

If you are looking to achieve better than stock performance expect to be spending some money, and a lot of time improving on the stock setup.

 

Lots have used bike carbs for a simple install and a cheap megajolt (which works well) but then come up against the jetting and sorting flat spots etc. Think of this x10 with throttle bodies.

 

Sidewaysdanny speaks a lot of sense, getting an aftermarket ECU running on the stock system first then switching to TB's will at least enable you to get a decent setup electronically first before you throw the TB's into the equation.

 

 

from what iv been studying now i think ill be starting with carbs and get them running right just to have some experience, i fitted the mi16 engine etc myself but now want to just do more tuning so carbs and a peter t cam seem to be best for me right now and finish sorting suspension and brakes.

[Galifrey 1]

from what iv been studying now i think ill be starting with carbs and get them running right just to have some experience, i fitted the mi16 engine etc myself but now want to just do more tuning so carbs and a peter t cam seem to be best for me right now and finish sorting suspension and brakes.

 

Get decent condition R1 carbs and buy a dynojet kit!

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

i'd get the best ECU you can and retain a stock plenum. Upgrade to bodies of somesort later

 

thats my plan exactly, the ms ecu i have is well built ok it does not have some of the features of others which cost twice the price, but i am confident it will do the job...i suppose time will tell?

 

the whole idea for my 205 was a cost effective fast road car, if i wanted to spend alot of cash on performance i would but a different car tbh.

[sideways danny 0]

thats my plan exactly, the ms ecu i have is well built ok it does not have some of the features of others which cost twice the price, but i am confident it will do the job...i suppose time will tell?

 

the whole idea for my 205 was a cost effective fast road car, if i wanted to spend alot of cash on performance i would but a different car tbh.

 

have to say that i really dont regard MS as a good ecu at all. When i said best you can get, i meant a proper ECU, not what is simply a DIY circuit board. I see a lot of MS and bike bodies, and I'd say (as Miles basically said 3 pages back) you're better off using the money you'd spend on bodies on something like Omex/KMS/DTA, and keep the std mi16/gti6 inlet

[hcmini1989 16]

just call me bodger then!!

 

its not bodging its called imaganitve repair .i think megasquirt has a bad rep due to people building them themselves and them not working .hence why no one wants to map them .if they didnt do a diy kit just sold pre-built ones then they would probably be as good as any of the others on the market with less features. i bought a pre built one 180 quid .and is top stuff its as reliable as any other maybe it hasnt got all the features as the other ones but reflects in the price its good enough to get your car running nicely on. plus its always getting better devolped so you will be able to upgrade later on .

 

as for the bike tbs .there as good as any other throttle bodies .the only flaw is the manifold as galifrey said once some one starts coffing the manifolds out bog bros or like the ones that i think its colin/sandy make in mass .so they will be cheaper then i think they will be alot more conversions going on

 

wich is the only reason for having r1 carbs is you can get a decent manifold to make good power.just my 2 cents

 

so back on topic i would get some r1 carbs send them to bogg bros get them jetted and a manifold have a look at there website for more info on the conversion

Edited December 28, 2009 by hcmini1989

[Cameron 16]

Yes you can fit carbs, but then you have to get some sort of mappable ignition. You might be able to run it by hacking off the injection part of the loom but then you're getting dangerously close to bodging territory, and you're never going to get the most out of them. The importance of well adjusted ignition timing was discussed very recently on here too.

 

Now, the thing about the term "cost effective" is that people mistake cheap for cost effective. A conversion that doesn't work is not cost effective, no matter how little money you've spent on it! Likewise a conversion that barely runs, causing you to spend months running around trying to find the problem, or paying someone to sort it out is not cost effective. Spending a little extra cash on the right things (not necessarily the most expensive) will reap huge rewards down the line. You have to really have your head into electronics to understand MS enough to diagnose any problems, so for me it makes total sense to just pay a little extra and have something that is guaranteed to work out the box.

[Galifrey 1]

as for the bike tbs .there as good as any other throttle bodies .the only flaw is the manifold as galifrey said once some one starts coffing the manifolds out bog bros or like the ones that i think its colin/sandy make in mass .so they will be cheaper then i think they will be alot more conversions going on

 

The main problem with getting commercially available manifolds is that every manufacturer wants to recoup their costs of coming up with them.

 

They choose to do this by charging a large sum and as a result selling very few, if they made a smaller profit on each one, they could sell a lot more, there would be a lot more conversions on the road, working successully, and as a result, more sold.

 

As long as they keep selling a couple of flanges and 4 bits of bent pipe for huges sums of money, people will keep bodging them instead, and bike TB's will continue to get an iffy name.

[Galifrey 1]

Yes you can fit carbs, but then you have to get some sort of mappable ignition. You might be able to run it by hacking off the injection part of the loom but then you're getting dangerously close to bodging territory, and you're never going to get the most out of them. The importance of well adjusted ignition timing was discussed very recently on here too.

 

Well they can run megajolt which is very effective, or use particularly on 8v GTI's the stock ignition.

[sideways danny 0]

Well they can run megajolt which is very effective, or use particularly on 8v GTI's the stock ignition.

 

using the stock ignition defies so much of what you're trying to achieve with tuning though. the standard management and ignition is one of the biggest things holding back the 8v XU, and should be the first thing changed as far as i'm concerned

[Galifrey 1]

using the stock ignition defies so much of what you're trying to achieve with tuning though. the standard management and ignition is one of the biggest things holding back the 8v XU, and should be the first thing changed as far as i'm concerned

 

You completely missed the point, cameron said you had to use mappable ignition or bodge the injection loom, which you dont, you can have the dizzy remapped which can improve it cheaply.

 

Sure fully mappable is better, but don't discount what you can do with a dizzy and bike carbs, and it is at least as good as badly mapped ignition. Mapped ignition is unlikely to improve peak figures, just driveability.

[sideways danny 0]

you've missed my point. I know what you're saying, it works to a point, but I disagree with proper mapping not making gains to peak figures. I've seen 10bhp on a 172 just going from a std siemens ECU to omex properly mapped. And a siemens sirius is far and away better than a dizzy.

 

Peak figures aren't everything either, if everything is up the top of the revs it wont be fast.