[race_prep] Guernsey Hillclimb 205 Build

[andy0075 9 1 Cars]

@EdCherry

 

My dampers are ok. They were serviced by Bilstein and set to tarmac specification.

When i look at a raceday what my competitiors drive in there cars, we all have such stiff springs.

No matter if it is a VW Golf 1,2 ; Polo ; Honda CRX or Vauxhall Astra,....

 

I also have contact to a lot of Peugeot 205 racedrivers in Austria and Germany and we all use something

between 600 and 850lb/in.

 

I know, this setup is nothing for Nürburgring or something similar. But it works good on Sprint and Hillclimbraces

here. :-)

 

Andy

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

What deg caster do you run Andy, looking at your Hompage on your website the front right looks to be planted nice and flat with a nice amount of camber on full lock??

[Cameron 16]

I'm not surprised it's flat running 800lb springs! He's probably only seeing 0.5Deg roll which is night on f*** all.

 

Just out of interest.. how much lower than standard ride height is your car? It has a pretty deep kit on it which is kinda misleading to the eye.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

I measured from the Sill the other day to adjust the right height (not the lip you jack up on as this is very uneven, on the outside of the lip actually on the sill) which measured 17cm front and 18cm rear

[andy0075 9 1 Cars]

What deg caster do you run Andy, looking at your Hompage on your website the front right looks to be planted nice and flat with a nice amount of camber on full lock??

 

I don't know how much castor i have. Let's say it this way. I use 309GTI16V wishbones and excentric topmounts.

Both points nearly max. to the rear of the car and a little bit to the inside that i have 1.5° camber.

 

Andy

[Cameron 16]

I'm not convinced caster is the answer here to be honest.. I certainly wouldn't go running less static camber than you should just to get a little bit more. The amount of caster you'll need to get any useful amount of camber gain (even on the tighter corners) is pretty significant and probably much more than eccentric top mounts will ever allow.

 

That said, I ran my eccentric mounts 1 hole away from full camber and combined with 309 wishbones I had 3 degrees negative.. so you should be able to get the best of both if you're only after -1.5Deg of camber. The point is.. I'd prioritise camber < caster.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Spoke to BMTR today who supplies the Avon crossplys to me and they also state that with crossplys the car should be set up as square as possible ie 0 Toe and 0 or max 0.5-ve camber??

 

For the remainder of the season I am setting to 0.5-ve camber, 3+ve caster and 0 Toe and leaving it at that to run with 27psi FR and 23psi RR

 

Will buy a tyre pyrometer over the winter for next season and also buy some heafty springs say 600lb to try without a ARB!!

[Cameron 16]

Very very surprised by that advice.. you did tell them it was on a saloon car, right?

 

BMTR are supposedly experts when it comes to Avon tyres, so the fact that they'd give you such strange setup advice is kinda unsettling. I don't think they appreciate that with 1 degree of body roll on a saloon that setup is going to be totally useless and do nothing but scrub the outer shoulders!

 

If you're seriously considering that setup, please please use one of your practise runs to try out 1.5Deg negative camber and see how it compares! If running 0.5Deg and zero toe gives you anything but dull turn-in and understeer then I'll eat one of my shoes.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Yeh he asked what car do I told him Peugeot 205, he originally said pressures of 20psi max in the front until I told him it was a saloon car with most of the weight upfront he then agreed with my 27/23 pressure as said above!!

 

Will definitely give 1.5-ve a test but will have to adjust the tie because a full deg adjustment of camber on each side seriously affects the toe do not really something I can change and test during a meeting unless I pre mark a setting to correct the toe on the track arms ready!! Yeh actually I'll do that!!

[Cameron 16]

I would do that.

[EdCherry 34 1 Cars]

BMTR... 1 Word. Useless.

[andy0075 9 1 Cars]

As Cameron wrote -> go for -1,5° camber.

 

-0,5 is not enough. You will get a lot of understeer!

 

Toe in or out is something you have to try on your own. On my car, when i use toe in or zero toe the

car has a lot of oversteer in every corner. For me it is not driveable when i have to fight with the car

in every corner to hold it on the street.

Other drivers maybe like exact that feeling when they can slide through the corners :-)

 

With 0,15° ( 1mm with a 15"rim) toe out my car feels very stable and reliable in fast corners :-)

 

Andy

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

Personally I don't think 1.5 deg negative is enough let alone 0.5 deg. Go look at any race saloon, touring car etc, they all run far more negative, you can even see it by eye. Christ even my girlfriends Mini cooper S runs more than 0.5 deg as standard.

[andy0075 9 1 Cars]

Personally I don't think 1.5 deg negative is enough let alone 0.5 deg. Go look at any race saloon, touring car etc, they all run far more negative, you can even see it by eye. Christ even my girlfriends Mini cooper S runs more than 0.5 deg as standard.

 

You can't say that so common. It all depends on the tyre type you use.

 

Radial tyres need a lot of camber. You can drive with 3-4° camber. In the SEAT SUPER COPA CUP they

even drive with -7° camber. Looks really silly if you ask me.

 

Diagonal tyres don't like so much camber. Maximum should be about -2°.

I use AVON 8.0/19,5/13 diagonal Slicks -> camber = -1,5°

 

Andy

[Cameron 16]

Andy - well said. Touring cars and most other saloon racers use radials, which can cope with much more camber than cross-plies.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Well part way through my 1/4 mile sprint today and best time so far is 13.53s with a top speed of 106.6mph

 

There's no rubber laid on this start line as we haven't used it since April so my 64ft times are only 2.55s

 

Really could have done with that launch control today!!!!

[Sandy 191]

You got to balance the camber between cornering and traction, hillclimbs often mean a different optimum to circuit racing and the high camber settings on Touring cars etc are for kerb hopping mid corner grip, an entirely different situation.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

So fInished yesterday with a final 1/4 mile time of 13.38s and a top speed of 108mph which I was happy with.

 

Now off to a mates workshop to set the camber up for Alderney hillclimb and sprint next weekend

 

Anyone else do sprints on here? Be nice to compare times and speeds?.

Edited September 9, 2012 by wardy18

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Right made a final decision today, thought whilst the front may still be a little soft it would be best to run more camber than advised from BMTR, so I have set and marked at 1.5-ve and set to 1mm toe out on each wheel I have reset and marked at 2-ve camber and worked out that a qtr turn out on each track arm corrects my toe back to 1mm or just under toe out.

 

Note - Increasing Camber reduces toe out and increases toe in ie pulls front of wheels closer together as the back of the wheels is held in place with the track arms.

 

I also hit my tyres with the heat cut and a scraper and removed the old crust from the tyre surface they now look and feel almost as good as new, do find though that the fronts are not as soft as the rears so will have to work more on the tyre warm up to soften them for the start line!!

 

Just launch control to go now hopefully finished off tomorrow

[Cameron 16]

Good stuff!

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Launch Control I allive...... Only about 20% tested but it seems to works (it's going to give them start line marshals a shock that's for sure haha) thanks to Sandy for his invaluable advice in running over the ECU figures!!

 

I'll be sure to update as the weekend goes on!!

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Here's a link to a pic from the weekends racing in Alderney, this link below is from the Sprint on Day 1 of the weekend, they had me clocked at 94mph heading into this left hand corner, hence the fact that both front left and rear left are both off the ground.........

 

I THINK THIS PROVES I'M GETTING SOMEWHERE WITH SUSPENSION SET UP......... however it is still leaning over a fair bit!!

 

http://www.guernseymotorsport.com/alderney-sprint2012car-145

[welshpug 1,661]

I wouldn't worry about the lean, as long as it works!

 

Have you seen how much the NGTC BTCC cars dive on braking? a lot! but they work.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

I still had a big amount of understeer at the hillclimb so half way through the day i did my pre-set change from 1.5-ve to 2-ve and i must say the understeer got worse so will revert back to 1.5-ve.

 

The last part of the suspension upgrade i am going to try for the next hillclimb is the 309 GTi Front ARB so an upgrade from the standard 17mm to 21mm ARB

[welshpug 1,661]

seems general consensus on here is that it'll make understeer worse, if you can try it beforehand I'd urge you to do so!