[race_prep] Guernsey Hillclimb 205 Build

[andy0075 9 1 Cars]

I and many others here in Austria use AVON A11 or A53 on the front and A15 on the rear

on light frontwheel driven cars.

 

A15 is to soft for the front! They become to hot and then you get a lot of understeer.

And they are not built to be used on the front of a front driven car too !

This Info is from the AVON dealers in Germany and Austria.

 

I use 27psi at the front and 24psi at the rear when the tyres are "cold". After the

finishline i have about 30psi front and 28psi at the rear.

 

The AVON's need some camber but not too much. Something between -1,3° and -1,8°.

Try -1,5 and it will be ok. But you need other AVON's for the front! A15 is to soft!

I drive with 1° toe out meassured with 15" rims.

 

I use 23mm TB's and a 25mm ARB at the rear and 700 lb/in at the front with no front ARB.

Every 205 driver here says after he swapped to this ARB-less setup it is much, much better

than befor! No Understeer anymore.

 

Here is a short video of my car -> no understeer and, thanks to the TRAN-X diff, controlable oversteer :-)

 

 

Andy

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Very interesting, thanks, 700lb springs, that's some serious spring rate!!!??

 

Video looks good though

 

I'm definitely going to phone Avon and BMTR for some advice too.

 

That's a large amount of toe out, I was always advised because I run completely rose jointed wishbones that I should run zero toe due to no movement in bushes etc????

Edited September 3, 2012 by wardy18

[andy0075 9 1 Cars]

That's a large amount of toe out, I was always advised because I run completely rose jointed wishbones that I should run zero toe due to no movement in bushes etc????

 

SORRY ! My mistake !

 

I mean 1mm toe out !

 

Andy

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Ah ok that makes more sense, intrigued about the heavy spring rate and no ARB, I have heard the no ARB mentioned from a trusted source before but wasn't given an idea of spring rate to suit!!

[andy0075 9 1 Cars]

Ah ok that makes more sense, intrigued about the heavy spring rate and no ARB, I have heard the no ARB mentioned from a trusted source before but wasn't given an idea of spring rate to suit!!

 

First I tryed 360lb/in with an ARB and than 500lb/in without an ARB. But both setups were too soft for that kind of races i do.

But i noticed a hugh amount of more grip driving with no front ARB.

Now, with the 700lb/in springs and no front ARB i'am very pleased. I still have a view cm wheelmovement and no understeer any more.

So it is not that stiff that nothing is moving/dumping :-)

The springs i use are a 100mm long main spring and a 105mm helperspring which go on block when the car is on the ground.

My Bilsteindampers are 40mm shortend.

 

Last winter i have mounted a TRAN-X diff instead of a Quaife and that was the biggest improvement because now i can control the rear

of the car with the gaspedal :-)

 

Andy

[Baz 421]

No front ARB FTW.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

No front ARB FTW.

 

???

[johnnyboy666 195 1 Cars]

'For The Win' = F.T.W

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Thats what i thought but again as with Andy you would have to run a heafty spring rate so was wondering if Baz had any experience with this to compliment that comment?

[Baz 421]

Yes, my white 205 on 375/400lb springs doesn't run one, & then my rallycar doesn't run one and that only has circa 180lb springs, handles very well.

 

Basically i'd say suck it & see, i reckon it'd work well for you & you only need to pop a drop link out. Turn-in is drastically improved, but at the expense of bodyroll.

 

I've tried it on various cars and sometimes it is just too wallowy, Something like Eibachs for example, are just a little too soft to take it(admittedly iirc had a bigger rear ARB too though) and you end up lifting a rear wheel all over the place and although does aid front end grip, overall it doesn't make you any time due to the car rolling about a lot more, adding to weight transfer so you have to battle that, as this will portray;

 

 

As i say, i'd certainly give it a try in your position, it's another option.

Edited September 4, 2012 by Baz

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Thanks Baz, i could feel from the last hillclimb that the rear inside was lifting considerably and have seen some photos round right handers where the front left splitter is actually scraping on the deck even with the new 375lb springs.

 

Admittedly in this photo below i had the front pressures too low, probably when i tested 24psi as you can see im practically running on the rim but you can see still the immense body roll.

 

[Cameron 16]

I would leave the ARB in for now, and make your first change to add some more -ve camber! If you're worried about having too much body roll then removing the ARB is only going to make that worse, and you'll find you need to run even more -ve camber to compensate.

[andy0075 9 1 Cars]

I would leave the ARB in for now, and make your first change to add some more -ve camber! If you're worried about having too much body roll then removing the ARB is only going to make that worse, and you'll find you need to run even more -ve camber to compensate.

 

The only possibility to control body roll is to make the car stiffer, lower the roll center hight or to use an thicker ARB.

But the problem with ARB's is, they lift the inner wheel up and decrease the griplevel. I really tried everything!

Different springrates from 300-850lb/in, ARB's from a 309GTI16V, 205GTI and no ARB. I even gave the 205GTI ARB

Setup another change a view weeks ago when i connected the droplink again. NOT A GOOD IDEA!!!

 

I mean if you drive on a track then an ARB and soft springs are the right decission, but for Sprint and Hillclimbraces where

the streets are reallye good, the setup with very stiff springs and no ARB is much better.

 

Andy

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Oh yeh for the last hillclimb in Alderney I will only be testing cambers.

 

Pressures will be left at 28fr 24rr depending on roll as the surface at that hillclimb is unbelievably abrasive!!

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

 

 

The only possibility to control body roll is to make the car stiffer, lower the roll center hight or to use an thicker ARB.

But the problem with ARB's is, they lift the inner wheel up and decrease the griplevel. I really tried everything!

Different springrates from 300-850lb/in, ARB's from a 309GTI16V, 205GTI and no ARB. I even gave the 205GTI ARB

Setup another change a view weeks ago when i connected the droplink again. NOT A GOOD IDEA!!!

 

I mean if you drive on a track then an ARB and soft springs are the right decission, but for Sprint and Hillclimbraces where

the streets are reallye good, the setup with very stiff springs and no ARB is much better.

 

Andy

 

Thanks Andy, I think over the winter I will buy a set (or borrow from someone local) of heafty springs and try your idea for the 2nd hillclimb next year (keep as is for the first so to compare) will consider 700lb or maybe a little less all depends on the corners weights when I get them setup, do you know what yours are?

[petert 588]

Pressures will be left at 28fr 24rr depending on roll as the surface at that hillclimb is unbelievably abrasive!!

 

I'm keen to hear of the temps with the pryometer that Cameron recommended with those pressures.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

I'm keen to hear of the temps with the pryometer that Cameron recommended with those pressures.

 

Would love to buy one of them pyrometers but with the expensive Alderney event coming up and vegas shortly after up i am skint at the moment, will be using the banks money for beer tokens in Alderney

 

This will have to be a development for next year!!

[Cameron 16]

I'd be very interested to see what you make of running such stiff front springs, and what it does for your handling balance and traction out of corners. It's something I've considered but I'm not sure whether you'd lose the characteristic oversteer of a little FWD hatch that really helps get quick laptimes, unless you also stiffen the rear up a lot!

 

Maybe a sensible development for next year would be to rear fit turrets, coilovers and an external adjustable ARB? That way you can play with spring rates and roll rates without having to spend £300-ish every time!

Edited September 5, 2012 by Cameron

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Maybe a sensible development for next year would be to rear fit turrets, coilovers and an external adjustable ARB? That way you can play with spring rates and roll rates without having to spend £300-ish every time!

 

That would move me up into the Sports Libre class so i wouldnt want to do that really.

 

Not really sure how to determine what would be an ideal spring rate with no ARB, without buying numerous rates and testing its a bit difficult!!

[Cameron 16]

It shouldn't if Sandy / Colin's car is anything to go by..

 

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

Whiteline has a adjustable, external ARB:

 

http://www.whiteline.com.au/product_detail4.php?part_number=BPR21Z

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Ah yes but i dont think Colins runs coilovers in turrets which i think would take him over the regs, if im right in thinking he retains the standard damper position but builds in a mounting plate to fit a spring between training arm and chassis to assist the damper then does away with the ARB and TBs, please correct me if im wrong!!

 

I need to fly Colin and his welder over for a weekend of upgrades

[Cameron 16]

They use turrets with coilovers acting on the back of the stub axles, whether or not they do away with the standard damper I don't know.. but I would be very surprised if they kept it. Repositioning of dampers is allowed in the regs, as long as the suspension type (i.e. trailing arm) is retained.

 

As far as I know they remove the splines from the TB's to allow them to rotate, so all of the spring force comes from the coilover. The TB's are only retained to tie the trailing arms together so they don't fly off.. I'm sure you could do away with them entirely and use hollow tubes to save a few kg's too!

Edited September 5, 2012 by Cameron

[Batfink 201]

standard damper is removed completely. TB's are still in place unless Colin changed his design recently.

[EdCherry 34 1 Cars]

Andy, ever think thats its maybe your dampers at fault here?

 

So many of these problems can be traced back to poor damping. Now not many clubmans spend there money on dampers which is understandable, especially when it comes to developing how their cars drive, but its one of the most critical areas of the 'chassis'.

 

Im not so sure 700lb/800lb springs is a good way to go about getting what you desire, but it certainly is a way that can achieve some goals.