[race_prep] Guernsey Hillclimb 205 Build

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Just spoke to a couple of guys for opinions and they are under the impression 24mm TB's at the rear may be a little stiff for a 723kg car, one recommended maybe 23mm TB's and 24mm ARB but agreed with the 350lb Springs but made a very good point i hadn't though of which was to measure my free length of my current springs as the extra stiffness will reduce the natural compression of the spring with the cars weight thus further increasing my front ride height, so increase to 350lb spring but go down an inch on the spring length.

 

So far through google searches i have found that Shenpar and Spoox do the TB's and ARB's and am looking at £300 and £165 respectively, is there any others you know off?

[Anthony 1,003]

Ok apologies, it's standard ARB (size unsure but i know I've never changed it) but i fitted my 21mm torsion bars!!

 

What's standard sizes for both?

As per Welshpugs comments further up the page - 18.9mm torsion and 19mm anti-roll bars as standard on a 205 GTi.

 

Just spoke to a couple of guys for opinions and they are under the impression 24mm TB's at the rear may be a little stiff for a 723kg car, one recommended maybe 23mm TB's and 24mm ARB but agreed with the 350lb Springs but made a very good point i hadn't though of which was to measure my free length of my current springs as the extra stiffness will reduce the natural compression of the spring with the cars weight thus further increasing my front ride height, so increase to 350lb spring but go down an inch on the spring length.

 

So far through google searches i have found that Shenpar and Spoox do the TB's and ARB's and am looking at £300 and £165 respectively, is there any others you know off?

I've personally built 24 and 25mm torsion bar beams on 205's, driving them extensively on road and track, and they've been fine - admittedly they would be a bit heavier than yours (probably low 800's), but then in both instances they were still used on the road and for track use with sticky tyres would have ideally been stiffer still.

 

They were run with 275 and 300lb front springs respectively, although with a lighter alloy block engine, and so 350lb would probably be a good starting point with a heavier iron block. ARB ranged from 22mm up to 27mm depending on use and conditions - the 27mm bar was a bit lively on greasy, wet roads!

 

See if Chris Penrose (309PUG on here) is doing a batch at the moment - I used to supply uprated bars (from the same supplier that a few other companies resell for at a considerable markup) but am not doing them at the moment. I've built beams for people using the bars supplied by Chris and they've been very good quality, and I've certainly no issue with recommending him.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Gaz can only do a 400lb spring in a 6" length, they cant to a 350lb in any less than 7".

 

Would 400lb be too much for a 723kg 205 with an Iron Block 8v on 9" Slicks??

[Cameron 16]

Don't get Gaz springs, buy Eibach. Demon Tweeks have an extensive range available and they're pretty well priced.

 

I would go for 24mm on the rear, too.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Ok i think the plan will be:

 

Eibach 375lb 7" Front Springs

23mm PTS Rear Torsion Bars (i know i know but im not confident in the 24mm in such a light rear end)

Standard Rear 19mm ARB (for now at least)

 

Then, set up

 

10mm Higher Rear Ride height than front (as per front and rear of side sill)

1deg -ve Camber

5deg +ve Caster

Pressures 24psi RR, 28psi FR

[tri_longer 25]

For info Simon, i'm running 309 rear beam on 25mm ARB and 23mm TB. Admittedly fronts are still only 250lb as haven't had chance to sort new springs yet, but at 3 Sisters the other week the handling was superb (thats running on Avons as well)

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Thanks Chris, not sure whether to uprate the ARB just yet or just stick to the 23mm TB and the 375lb springs and see how it goes plus just booked a week in Vegas for next month so cant spend too much of the gambling money :D

 

I have (or will have) a set of nyon brand new set 300lb springs if your interested?

[tri_longer 25]

Consider them sold Simon

[TT205 42]

This is all very well but there's a lot of guesswork going on here

 

imho you should do suspension changes a bit at a time or you won't know what has done what

 

If you are currently on standard bars, even an ARB upgrade will make a huge difference - I'd do this first not TB's (cheaper too)

 

On my hillclimb car (non-slicks) a 25mm bar was too much, the tripoding was ridiculous but 23mm was fabulous - even withous a TB upgrade this would certainly improve your times

 

To a point if you simply upgrade absolutely everything at the same time you will find it impossible to judge what improves (or doesn't) what

 

You've spent so much brass mate - don't waste any!

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

I know exactly what your saying and I do agree however in a season where I only have 8 hillclimbs to test the changes on and no track to pop to at a free weekend I am seriously time bound so feel I have to make what seems to be the most important upgrades at once ie springs up front and a change to the rear which I am only at the peril of others advice to help choose TB's or ARB.

 

Making a decision from a range of experienced advice and situations is my only option right now until I get these upgrades on the car and test and beleive me it's quite frustrating not having that track time to test these things!!

 

I'm very appreciative for everyone's help and advice with this!!

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

This is all very well but there's a lot of guesswork going on here

 

imho you should do suspension changes a bit at a time or you won't know what has done what

 

If you are currently on standard bars, even an ARB upgrade will make a huge difference - I'd do this first not TB's (cheaper too)

 

On my hillclimb car (non-slicks) a 25mm bar was too much, the tripoding was ridiculous but 23mm was fabulous - even withous a TB upgrade this would certainly improve your times

 

To a point if you simply upgrade absolutely everything at the same time you will find it impossible to judge what improves (or doesn't) what

 

You've spent so much brass mate - don't waste any!

 

Where did you get your 23mm Rear ARB from if you dont mind me asking?

[TT205 42]

Where did you get your 23mm Rear ARB from if you dont mind me asking?

 

When I got mine you could still buy from PTS

Wasn't Anthony selling one? Else look in the group buys and contact 309PUG

[Cameron 16]

This is all very well but there's a lot of guesswork going on here

 

imho you should do suspension changes a bit at a time or you won't know what has done what.

 

I have to disagree, that may be the approach you can take when tuning a set-up with potential and you're trying to figure out which adjustments do what, but not the approach you should take on a first set-up of a race car, which this basically is. Simon needs a set-up that he can work with first, and it's going to waste time and races by iteratively adopting a set-up that he would most likely take up in full anyway.

 

The facts are you need stiffer springs to limit body roll and work with the tyres, to compensate for reduced suspension travel, and to improve response times; sticking to standard *road car* spring rates is going to do you no favours at all. That's why my suggestion is to get the basic spring rates right first, and while the rear end of the car may be quite light, you need to take advantage of this to control load transfer at the heavier front end, so it needs to be stiffened up - a lot. And let's not forget that you're also running downforce (of some unknown amount) at the rear, so I wouldn't be too focused on the static weight.

 

Once you have the basic set-up, whether it be 23mm or 24mm TB's and stiffer front springs, you can start to tune one thing at a time and note the improvements (or not!) to get an idea of what works.

[TT205 42]

At no point has what I said disagreed with you Cameron, but it appeared budget was becoming a consideration and bang for bucks he would see a big difference with an uprated ARB on a beam that otherwise is standard. He could then use front spring rates to match either what he's got or with thicker TB's

 

If budget stretches then it would be very odd to upgrade the TB's and not the ARB which is what Simon was talking about ^^

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

I would like to do both at the same time definitely and am trying to find prices for a 23mm TB and 23mm ARB for the rear but am having some trouble finding a supplier of 23mm ARB's (i think with everything i have been told that 23 TB and 23 ARB is a good base to start with) matched to Eibach 350lb front springs which i have ordered this morning.

[Cameron 16]

At no point has what I said disagreed with you Cameron, but it appeared budget was becoming a consideration and bang for bucks he would see a big difference with an uprated ARB on a beam that otherwise is standard. He could then use front spring rates to match either what he's got or with thicker TB's

 

If budget stretches then it would be very odd to upgrade the TB's and not the ARB which is what Simon was talking about ^^

At no point has what I said disagreed with you Cameron, but it appeared budget was becoming a consideration and bang for bucks he would see a big difference with an uprated ARB on a beam that otherwise is standard. He could then use front spring rates to match either what he's got or with thicker TB's

 

If budget stretches then it would be very odd to upgrade the TB's and not the ARB which is what Simon was talking about ^^

 

Understood, and good point.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

I know AB had a batch of 23mm TB's made after a number of 3rd party ones sheared on people. Not sure he's got any left; we're talking quite a while ago now (2 years probably!). He's away at the moment though.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Cool thanks, Im chatting to Andy at the moment over Facebook so ill ask him.

 

Shenpar can supply a 24mm ARB so i may have to go with that.

[welshpug 1,661]

I had no issues getting 23 mm zx/306 length bars via a guy on the 106rr, he's sorting another batch at the moment, theyll be about 220+ postage.

[johnnyboy666 195 1 Cars]

dont know if its any help, but I use an arb out of a saxo with 306 end plates thats 23mm (or possibly 24mm my calipers arent very accurate!) its shorter than the 205 arb by a little bit so theres less engagement on the splines, but as long as you get it centred it seem to work pretty well. some people weld one end on.

 

think I paid £95 new for the ARB brand new and tenner for some second hand 306 end plates

[johnnyboy666 195 1 Cars]

I had no issues getting 23 mm zx/306 length bars via a guy on the 106rr, he's sorting another batch at the moment, theyll be about 220+ postage.

 

is that arbs or tbs?

[welshpug 1,661]

220 for tb's 110 for arbs, any length

[johnnyboy666 195 1 Cars]

not bad that *nips over to rr to spend next months wages*

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Can I just confirm this 106rr is:

 

http://www.106rallyeforum.com

 

Pleasecorrect is wrong and any chance of this guys username?

 

Thanks

[davey sprocket 14]

Can I just confirm this 106rr is:

 

http://www.106rallyeforum.com

 

Pleasecorrect is wrong and any chance of this guys username?

 

Thanks

 

Here presumably?....http://www.106rallyeforum.com/forum2008/showthread.php?t=86439