[race_prep] Guernsey Hillclimb 205 Build

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Yes mate I have a couple sets ready to send, pm me if you want a set!

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

I have today made a realisation, the CWP i removed from my gearbox to fit in the 4.4 is marked 16 x 65 which i am led to beleive is a 4.06 ratio as fitted in a 1.6 box. This has good news and bad news, good news is that i have a 4.06 CWP to put back in, bad news is i now know why my 1st gear is so useless, because its the 1.6 box which has the much shorter 1st gear ratio at 3.251:1 than the 1.9 at 2.923:1.......... DAMN IT!!!

 

SO i obviously want to now change the 1st gear ratio to a 1.9 but is it a simple task of swapping the 1st gear cog or do i need to change the whole internal gearing???

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

1st and 2nd are machined into the input shaft, so you'll need to swap that, and all the knock-on effects that go with it.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Not all 1.6's had the different 1st, Count the teeth to check. It was the later ones from around 1990 that used the same 1st thou not listed by Pug doing this

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Great I'll look into how many teeth the 1.9 and 1.6 have for 1st and pray when I open it up otherwise I will need to pull apart my donor 1.9 box!!

 

Thanks for the info also Brumster

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

So i now have a bench full of BE1 gears and have found that i was actually running the 1.6 1st gear (far too short for a race application), gear ratios as follows:

 

1.6Gti

 

Gear - (Input Shaft) - (Output Shaft) - Ratio

1st - 12 - 39 - 3.25:1

2nd - 20 - 37 - 1.85:1

3rd - 25 - 34 - 1.36:1

4th - 29 - 31 - 1.07:1

5th - 37 - 32 - 0.86:1

 

1.9Gti

Gear - (Input Shaft) - (Output Shaft) - Ratio

1st - 13 - 38 - 2.92:1

2nd - 20 - 37 - 1.85:1

3rd - 25 - 34 - 1.36:1

4th - 29 - 31 - 1.07:1

5th - 37 - 32 - 0.86:1

 

Please see the attached for working on my current top speeds in each gear compared to the new 1st gear and 4.06:1 FD change.

 

Let me know what you think, personally i think this will optimise my power much better.

 

Simon

Edited September 27, 2011 by wardy18

[DRTDVL 4 1 Cars]

wardy - have you thought about a mi16/s16 box with the 1.6/1.9 3rd, 4th, 5th with the mi16/s16 final?

 

mi16 = 2.923 1.850 1.280 0.969 0.757 - 4.429

 

hybrid = 2.923 1.850 1.360 1.069 0.865 - 4.429

 

 

Edited September 27, 2011 by DRTDVL

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Correct me if im wrong but would that not just be the same as using a 1.9 box with Mi16 FD??? Which apart from having a 1.6 1st gear is what i have been running?? 1,9 and Mi16 have rthe same gear ratyios just a different FD but for me the Mi16 final drive makes the geraing too short with the amount of power im now running.

 

In an ideal world i would love to find a shorter 4th and 5th gear for my hybrid box but the only ones i can see are from the GTi6 which i dont know will fit on the 1.9 Input and Output shafts??? ANYONE??

[DRTDVL 4 1 Cars]

sorry you right... wasn't think straight...

[welshpug 1,662]

probably want a gear set from the likes of quaife, gripper, sadev or bacci romano if you want them much closer.

 

have heard of some 6 speed gears being used after some machine work but I've no idea of the specific details, its said the design of them isnt that strong either so maybe not ideal for lots of torque and slick tyres plus kerb hopping on a plate diff.!

Edited September 27, 2011 by welshpug

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

I might enquire if one of those companies can supply just the ratios for a 4th and 5th, as per my pdf file above, i dont really need the 125mph top speed, only really 110-115mph max but i need the 78-80mph in 3rd so if i could get closer 4th and 5th alone from Quaife etc then that would be excellent and improve my split times even more

[welshpug 1,662]

just a thought, main issue you will encounter is that 3rd and 4th are one piece on the output shaft, DOH!

 

a straight standard gti6 box sounds close to what you need, if only it didnt limit your steering lock!

 

1st 2.92 2nd 1.87 3rd 1.41 4th 1.15 5th 0.92 6th 0.79 FD 4.05 (3.92 on later boxes iirc)

 

gear speeds in KPH @ 6500rpm

 

60 93 124 152 189 221

 

all from here

 

http://www.205gti.com/techgearboxUK.htm

Edited September 27, 2011 by welshpug

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Ah yes good points made there, maybe best to stick with what i have then

 

A Gti6 box must be a fair bit heavier than the BE1/3 boxes with the extra size and weight of the 6th gear which i dont need?? Probably not worth the weight gain for the advantage it would give me.

[welshpug 1,662]

naah, its about 4.5 kilos heavier.

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

The 6 speed box is crap on a road car only due to the steering lock issue. I would have thought it will work quite well on a peaky race motor, and steering lock for manoeuvering isn't going to be an issue either.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

thats alot for me at the moment when the car is already overweight at 810kg.......

 

plus i would need to source a 6 box from the mainland and get it couriered to me on the island (money is tight atm after spending 800 on the new clutch and flywheel) whereas my current plans involve using all the gears etc from boxes that i already have in my stock, best way forward for now then in the future i can look at improving 4th and 5th ratios

[welshpug 1,662]

its all that filler and fibreglass

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

810!

 

My track car with two seats, glass windows all round, all steel panels etc is only 865kg.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Ill give points for the fibreglass but that weighs f'all but the only filler on that car is smoothing off the rear qtr badges and smoothing the rear bumper.

 

I have a list of weight saving plans for the winter and am looking to shed up to 40kgs from the old girl!!

Edited September 27, 2011 by wardy18

[welshpug 1,662]

you're a long way short of Colin Satchell's 690 kilos that was with an iron block and 16v head afaik!

 

a few ideas on here http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=65597&st=0

Edited September 27, 2011 by welshpug

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

I bet his shell looked like swiss cheese...........

 

Im not allowed to cut any holes in the body/chassis other than to run Oil/Water/Elec Lines through according to MSA Regs

 

Plus ive got the full undertray and diffuser in 1.2mm Ally which is going to be partically removed and if not removed replaced with Carbon fibre or Fibre glass weave. And my shell was never taken back to bare metal before sprayin so theres a few layers under there, we just dont have the facilities in guernsey for acid dipping or that scale of blasting :angry:

 

the weight of it annoys me immensely so i have to do something about it!!!!!!!!!!

[welshpug 1,662]

 

 

ahh that's a bummer, though I guess everyone has to abide by the same rules so just do the best you can!

 

DJmini's 205 is down at 726 kilos and still road legal afaik, with added turrets and 16v, though a little like cheese

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=89678&st=0

Edited September 27, 2011 by welshpug

[jackherer 543]

I've never taken a six speed box apart beyond changing the diff but I imagine it would be possible to remove the extra gear and put a shorter five speed end cover on it which would solve the steering lock issue and probably reduce its weight a bit. The thought came to me because I stripped the teeth from fifth gear on a 205 once when I was a long way from home with no breakdown cover, I took the end plate off and cleaned out the remains of the gear and drove home with a four speed box.

[cybernck 402 1 Cars]

I was just about to suggest the same thing, as a wild idea .

 

Though there wouldn't be a massive difference between such modified box and a 1.9 box with 1.6 FD, so I wouldn't say it's worth the effort really.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

 

Though there wouldn't be a massive difference between such modified box and a 1.9 box with 1.6 FD, so I wouldn't say it's worth the effort really.

 

That what i was thinking

 

Anyways boxes are apart now so im am on a gear swapping mission tonight on my mates press