[race_prep] Guernsey Hillclimb 205 Build

[Batfink 201]

Is £300 worth it on a £2k engine...

depends solely on whether you can afford to repair it if it goes wrong and chalk it up as experience..

 

Not many people are in that privileged position so spend a bit more and get it right the first time.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

In an ideal world i would love the whole set up but my hillclimbs involve constant riding of pavements and so the edge of the pavement is going to be ride under the sump, if this catches its game over!! The pavemenst arnt exactly huge say 1 - 2" tall but along with the car being sat at ultimate low ride height and i also have lowered gearbox and top XU9 engine mounts (1cm) there is a great risk of catching a lowered sump.

 

Maybe my situation would best suit a Petert Sump Baffle in either the XU10, XU9J2 a/c sump or even adapt to fit in my bare XUD9 sump along with an XU10 Windage tray attached to main caps bolts/nuts as std.

[welshpug 1,661]

fit a sump guard, problem solved

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

I've been offered a gti6 XU10 sump (trap door baffle type) and XU10 windage tray for £40 delivered so tbh I'd be silly not to go for this and I can then use petert other items to go with this like the pump baffle

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Ok GTi6 Sump and Windage tray now on its way to QEP

 

Just awaiting reply from Petert for a Pump Baffle to suit

 

Am also looking into Alternator bracket from a XUD11 engine from a 206 (i think) but looks like it'll fit so worth a try (see pic, part number 5706G4)

 

I think thats it for possible issues, now just down to building it, ordering parts and making the engine mount plate to fit to the front of the block

 

My main concern now is time, Matt said it can take up to 12 weeks for the Customs Pistons to arrive

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I think you mean pump pickup (extended) from PeterT don't you?

 

And you have the part numbers for the brackets, just get a price from a dealer.

Edited November 10, 2009 by DrSarty

[welshpug 1,661]

XUD11 will be from a 605 or a 406, its the 2.1.

 

the peterT extended pickup wont work ion a gti6 sump alone as the sump isnt deep enough to warrant extending the pickup.

 

you can fit a gti6 baffle plate to the oil pump if you use the gti6 pump and sump (will fit the S16 baffled steel sump too)

Edited November 10, 2009 by welshpug

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Rich - as you'll know Petert supplies a baffle plate which attaches to the oil pump via the pick up bolts, this is what I mean, not the pick up extension

 

Both - I'm not going for the extended pick up, if I was I would need the spacer as you know so that I could use the extended pick up but for now I'm just having the gti6 baffled sump and windage tray

 

Welshpug - when you say gti6 baffle plate do you mean the Petert one and also I'm sure I read somewhere that all XU oil pumps were the same, it was the sump that was different which meant Petert had to supply different pump baffle plates for different sump applications?

[welshpug 1,661]

no, most of the later pumps in the XU engine have this kind of plate on them,

 

1047 10 PANEL - INJECTION XU10J4RS

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Ah ok, never seen that panel, always just thought it was added extra that Petert supplied

 

So Oil Pump Differences as follows:

 

The XUD9 Oil Pump i have, Oil Pump Part no 1001 68 and Pick Up Part no 1018 38

 

 

The XU10J4RS Oil Pump (GTi6), Oil Pump Part no 1001 86, Pick Up Part no 1018 48

 

 

So the question is, can i not source the GTi6 Pick Up Baffle Plate Part no (as you have shown above) 1047 10 and just adapt it to fit my XUD9 Pick up, this would be the easier and most cost effective way rather than sourcing the GTi6 Oil Pump which would then mean ensuring i have the correct Oil Pump Spacer to ensure the chain is correct length and will the chain and sprockets be the same ratios etc, as QEP has the block and will have until early next year it is impossible for me to buy these parts and test fit!!

 

What would you recommend?!

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

To me, on close inspection, the Pick Up to Pump bolts look very similar patterns so i should be able to utilise the GTi6 Pump Baffle on my XUD9 Pump!! hmm

[welshpug 1,661]

quite possible, though I'd probably just stick a complete gti6 pump in there myself, means it'd already have the baffle, larger sprocket, and 6 bar spring.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

does sound a better plan, i have the uprated spring in my XU9 pump but that would mean breaking them both and swapping over, i have taken your advice and enquired on a price for a full set up inc Oil Pump with baffle fitted, chain, crank sproket and spacer. should be a straight swap with all of this (i hope)

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Looking good. Good researching and clear info.

 

Just to pick on something Mei said, my set up IS a GTI6 sump with no mods. The oil pump came from James R and just has the pick up spaced about 6mm deeper. I also have the 'spacer' or stiffener fitted. I was a bit confused why Mei was saying the extended pick up won't fit. Perhaps I misunderstood?

 

Also Si, where are you getting your GTI6 (XU10J4RS) diagrams and parts data from please?

 

MiamiStu's catalogue stops at 2.0 Mi16 (XU10J4) and I'd like to be able to include 10J4R & RS in my downloadable engine reference books. Is it Service Box? I've never used it and would appreciate a link and any instructions/top tips.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Thanks Rich, its coming together well now, just ironing out the problems!! Ah ok so the GTi6 with the shalower Trap Door baffle works ok for you yeh?! Ill start without the spacer and extended pick up and see how it goes and go from there, i just need to source the full GTi6 Pump kit now, i hadnt planned on having to spend all this on sump/oil pump set up but thats all part of the learning curve i suppose and very grateful to all those helping out and pointing me in the right direction.

 

Im using Service Box:

 

Peugeot Service Box

 

You can change the Language before on the log in at the top right of the page

 

Also been using the Citroen Service box to help with comparisons etc

 

Very useful websites when you know how to use them, can be a bit of a maze trying to find what section the part your looking for is in though

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

So an update on the 2.3ltr build spec (to meet MSA Regs):

 

Head:

 

XU10J2

Catcam with Vernier Pulley

3 Angled Seats and ported by QEP

Magnex 4 Branch Exhaust Mani

Weber Twin 45 Carbs

 

Bottom End:

 

XUD9

87mm Bore (to be confirmed shortly)

DW12 96mm Crankshaft

S16 Con Rods

Custom Pistons

GTi6 Baffled Sump

GTi6 Oil Pump (Full set up inc 26t Crank Cog)

GTi6 Windage Tray

XU9 Engine Mounts with custom plate to allow top engine mount to be fitted

 

So currently an engine made up from 6 different peugeot models

 

Peugeot 205 1.9 Diesel

Peugeot 205 1.9 GTi

Peugeot 306 2.0 XSi

Peugeot 306 2.0 GTi6

Peugeot 306 2.0 S16

Peugeot 607 2.2 HDi

 

You have got to love Peugeot's!!!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

That's much better Si; not 17 separate topics, one for each sump bolt.

 

Anyway. Looking good.

 

I strongly suspect that if the XU10 block can tolerate 87mm bore then I reckon the XUD9 block can. That's just a guess, with fingers crossed, to help your project. My point being that if you're paying for forged pistons, then you may as well have the extra capacity/displacement.

 

Talking displacement: try this little handy programme for working it out in a flash. (You may need to check the 'Metric' box)

 

Engine Displacement Calculator

 

Your 87mm bore gives you 2282cc vice 2230cc at 86mm. Not worth it IMO if changing from OE to forged pistons (read: £600+ cost) but if you're going forged anyway, then why not?

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

I would go to 86mm first. You are unlikely to notice the difference from the seat of your pants in 52cc, but if you bore to 87mm and have a problem then the block is scrap. Bore to 86mm and you have one more bore to save it.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

I was always under the assumption that using the 96mm crank would result is something needing to be custom, ie Pistons or Rods, to gain the correct Deck Protrusion. So in this case it made sense to go with Custom pistons to also gain a good CR as i could source S16 Rods which were perfect items as std for the build

 

I havent looked into the 86mm OE Pistons, could be a money saving option but then if im doing this build id like to stick to my long running ambition of a almost 2.3ltr (2282cc) build

[welshpug 1,661]

well the conrod you have chosen is 152mm long, half the crankshaft throw is 48mm, add them and you'll get 200mm, block height = 234.8mm, so you need a 34.8mm tall piston if you want them to come flush with the deck, do you though?

 

the RFY piston from what I can find when searching is 39.1mm, the RFS working from that (6mm longer rod, but that they sit 0.7mm taller) are 33.8mm tall.

 

so they sit 1mm below deck, but do they fit the RFY rods? sounds near ideal if you stay 86mm and skim the block, whether it is in practice I don't know.

Edited November 12, 2009 by welshpug

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

ARGH why do you do this to me.............

 

I do want reliability from this motor as i dont want to take it to 87mm and it go pop and leave a big mess of my car, the road and my wallet.

 

So the RFS Pistons are GTi6 Items yeh?! just to confirm......

 

Pros of a 86mm bore 2230cc:

 

More reliabilty

More durability

Saving on Custom Pistons at a cost of £800ish

Will save my ALOT of time waiting for custom pistons to come down (Matt predicts 12weeks)

 

ONLY CON - ITS NOT A 2.3

 

 

Your honest opinion, in my situation what would you guys go for, Heart = 2282cc, Head = 2230cc!?

 

 

 

note. i have a feeling S16 Small end is 22mm, GTi6 Small end is 20mm!?

Edited November 12, 2009 by wardy18

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I'm no expert, but why would you consider RFS (GTI6), 16v pistons (which will have 4 valve cut outs in) for this?

 

Surely you just want 86mm XU10J2 pistons?

Edited November 12, 2009 by DrSarty

[Anthony 1,003]

Given how fragile GTi-6 pistons seem to be, I'm not sure that I would ever consider using them out of choice - if the piston lets go (and I alone have seen three that have done this, so in my experience it's by no means a rare occurance) then it will destroy the block and head, plus almost certainly the crank, rods and most other internal parts

[Anthony 1,003]

Also, I might have missed something, but given that this is an 8v, are the sump baffle solutions being talked about here not somewhat overkill?

 

Frankly, to surge an 8v to the point of killing it with even a moderate sump baffle you'd be doing well, so a £300 lardy-dar baffle seems like alot of money to address a problem which isn't really there IMO. If it was an Mi16/S16 then definately worth baffling as best you can if you're spending significant money on the build and will be using it hard, but for an 8v?

 

In my opinion, the normal XU10 oil control bits (windage tray, pump baffle and chain guard) coupled with a reasonable baffle in the sump will be more than sufficient, and coupled with a Petert extended pick would certainly prevent any issues I'd say.

 

The only question mark would be the S16 rods, which if CRF450's diagnosis of the Mi16 oil surge issues is correct, might not be the best choice as they are of the same type as the Mi16 ones and - if Martin's right - a big contributing factor to the surge problem. XU10J2 rods, assuming they're press fit like XU5/XU9 and the correct length, would be a better bet I'd say.

[welshpug 1,661]

surely oil surge is an issue always which is down to the cornering forces and duration, whether it be an 8 valve 16v or 24v, or even 32v in Cybernk's case!!

 

Its just the consequences of this surge that kills the engines, of which the Mi16 does not tolerate this as well as an 8 valve due to the rods using a lot of oil and a lot of oil staying in the head galleries, emptying the sump, which in turn highlights oil surge even more, though oil surge in itself is not the problem

 

 

the only reason I mentioned the RFS pistons is because they are sat atop a 158mm long rod, and hence when sat on the 96mm crank and 152mm rod, they are near perfect in height, the XU10J2 piston mentioned, is too tall as it sits atop a 152mm rod like the RFY.

 

 

the only reason the "chocolate" GTi6 pistons go, if because they've been twatting a valve or 4 for god knows how long due to slipped crank pulleys, too much cam lift @ TDC from "fast road" cams, bad workmanship, and poor attention to detail like over skimming heads and using standard not oversize gaskets.

Edited November 12, 2009 by welshpug