[race_prep] Guernsey Hillclimb 205 Build

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Baffle wise I;d look at the Proper Pug Sport one (France that is) as it's a multi trap door and the design was used on the TC 306's here and some Maxi's

 

Excellent thanks ill have a look into one

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Like this one:

 

206 Sump Baffle (Peugeot Sport)

[welshpug 1,661]

that's for a TU engine I believe, look in DJmini's thread for an XU one.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

This one you mean?! (Sorry for the pic steal Dj_Mini)

 

Doesnt seem alot of kit for £300

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2009 by wardy18

[Galifrey 1]

This one you mean?! (Sorry for the pic steal Dj_Mini)

 

Doesnt seem alot of kit for £300

 

 

 

Someone is having a laugh... £300 for a few bits of metal, bolts rubber and sealant???

 

I would expect to get the whole sump for that!

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

The one above is the cheap one of the 2, it's the other one you need which is around £300.00 last time I looked.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

The one above is the cheap one of the 2, it's the other one you need which is around £300.00 last time I looked.

 

So seriously, how 'hard' do you need to drive a car to need a £325+ sump?

[Sandy 191]

You might find out the hard way, as many have!

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

So seriously, how 'hard' do you need to drive a car to need a £325+ sump?

 

And 325£ is still not much compared to a dry-sump?

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

I see however that the sump in the above diagram already has baffles fitted, my XUD9 Sump has nothing so would a Peugeot Sport unit be as useful to my engine as it would the XU10 unless i were to buy an XU10 Sump to go with it!?

 

Would fitting an XU10 Windage Tray along with my Shenpar Sump Balffle not be up to the job, bearing in mind im 8v too and not 16v and not doing track days, just short 35s Hillclimb runs!?

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

I'm guessing here as I;ve never seen a Shenpar Baffle, But if a copy of the old Peugeot UK one then the tray is already fitted, The crank doesn;t slop around in the oil either

 

As said the trap door baffle isn't too hard to get to surge really, but it all comes down to car and driver

 

On your hillclimb thou you need to think about the courner speeds + Duration and any possiblity of surge to help you with your choice, Having never driven in the Islands again I doubt any of us can give you any advice.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

The Shenpar unit is the same as what i attached earlier in the thread, and like you it has plates ontop of the baffles which i would say act as a windage tray, our hillclimb does have a long right and a long left hander!!

 

I will see how the Shenpar Baffle sits into the XUD9 sump, if anything i could always fit the XU9 sump and spacer which had the Sump Baffle fitted to all year with no issues. If the Shenpar unit sits fairly snug inside the sump then i reckon it would be ok, ive never really know what you should be looking for in a baffle, obviously to stop slushing around so a good set of baffle fins within the sump will do this just fine!!

[Dj_mini 7]

Yes the baffle is alot of money for what it is but when you see it on the engine / in the sump you realise why it would take for ever to make it that well.

John read sumed this up perfectly for me whats £300 to protect a 10k engine.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Yes the baffle is alot of money for what it is but when you see it on the engine / in the sump you realise why it would take for ever to make it that well.

John read sumed this up perfectly for me whats £300 to protect a 10k engine.

 

I totally agree with the last bit.

 

But this isn't a £10k engine, nor is it likely to be a £5k or even a £2.5k engine. That was my point.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Thanks DrSarty, this is costing me in the region of 2k ish as im keeping it 8v and not converting to 16v just yet!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

If I may clarify my point about this uber-sump.

 

Naturally it will work, countering oil surge and protecting the engine from self-destruction due to oil starvation brought on by lateral track/circuit forces. Therefore the engine keeps running and your hard-earned cash isn't flushed down the crapper.

 

If I had a £10k engine, even a £5k one, I would certainly feel peace of mind having it there. The only step beyond this I can think of is a dry sump system.

 

But that was my point when I said "but how hard have you got to drive a car to need this?".

 

Depending on the application (tarmac, rallies, hill climbing, trials, autotests etc) and the level you are 'competing' at, helps you decide what piece of kit you need. Purely having a £10k engine makes that decision for you - have one.

 

The question I asked above (ignoring value ATM) means at what point is my XU10 baffled sump with spacer, extended oil pump pickup and windage tray 'not enough'? When do I need to move onto this PTS diamond of a sump and beyond that when do I need to dry sump?

 

This is why I simply worded it "how hard have you got to drive a car" such that you need to make the decision to move up in protection and associated cost?

 

My engine build including the forged pistons and the customising of gudgeon pins and cam pulleys etc was £2,200. That's the bit my sump/oil set-up is protecting. The engine's worth a lot more with the inlet, exhaust, management, ignition, diff and gearbox etc but really about £2,000 is what it protects.

 

This means a £10,000 engine is a scary piece of kit, and on that basis £300 is pennies to protect it. But to what extent would I need to push my car, i.e. how hard would I need to drive it (and doing what) to need a sump which costs £350-£400 instead of the £60 that I have?

 

I hope this is relevant to your topic Si.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Perfectly relevant mate, all opinions needed to come to the right conclusion for my set up!

 

I am aiming for a similar set up as you, but utilising my Shenpar Sump Baffle (once evaluated how it fits in the XUD9 sump) also get myself a XU10 Windage tray and see how it fits with the 96mm throw crank (ill need to find 2mm extra clearence than you have with the 92mm crank, hopefully i can space it out slightly if i need to).

 

A couple of things are, picking up from the description of your set up, did the XU10 come with a sump spacer like the 205 XU9 block does or is this an added extra?! If so can i utilise an XU9 sump spacer?!

 

And then, having used a Sump Spacer how do you go about extending the oil pump pick up or can you get away with adding more oil in the system to couter act the spacer?!

 

Best Regards and thanks for all your opinion and advice

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Now you should know that iron block XU10s (8 or 16v) do not come with (or need) a 'sump spacer' Mr Ward if you did your research: LOOK

 

The reason is - and this is why people 'huff' when we call it a spacer (although that's what Pug call it) - that it's really a stiffener to strengthen petrol XU9 builds at the bottom end due to their relatively weaker blocks.

 

With my iron block, I don't need a stiffener as the block's tough enough...but...with one added AND an extended oil pump pickup (ex PeterT for example) I have added about 1-1.5litres of oil capacity. This means under normal to strenuous driving it is unlikely I will starve the pump and have a 'dry, loud, smokey and costly (painful) moment'.

 

The XU oil pumps all appear to be the same BTW, so I can see no issues with your XUD block. But there are many sumps, based on aircon and years, so I'd advise researching whether your baffle kit will fit and which one's best for your build. The good news is there are tonnes of them about.

 

This doesn't mean 'my' system doesn't have its limits though; everything mechanical does, which brings me back yet again to my question.

Edited November 6, 2009 by DrSarty

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Thats great, ill get on the case and research into the sumps.

 

When i refer to your system, i simply mean that it seams you have all bases covered and seems an ideal set up for your use and build. A good Windage Tray to elimate airating the oil, baffled sump to stop slushing oil around and the spacer to allow extra oil capacity along with the extended pick up to utilise this. To me this sounds all i would need after evaluation of my build and situation so is what i would like to aim for.

 

ps sorry for the ignorance with the XU10 Sump and Spacer, im sat at work popping on the (not allowed) internet every so often to come on the forum and check my thread, im constantly thinking over the build through the day!!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Try managing 6 engine builds, 2 car restorations, 1 uber car project and having ongoing ideas about (2 specific) potential new hybrids.

 

Currently I'm researching EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation systems), double-valve thermostats and Schrader valves.

Edited November 6, 2009 by DrSarty

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Im currently researching extensively in what to have for lunch, but that sounds good mate, good luck with the projects, i so wish my job entailed mechanical engineering rather than tapping away at a damn keyboard infront of a monitor all day!!

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Worth noteing if you do extend the sump down, you bring the level lower so risking cracking (Alloy) or denting (Tin) the sump or even worse breaking the Oil pump

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

this did cross my mind, I will check for clearence when fitted!

 

I just want to ask the question, does using a spacer for extra capacity to gain reliability and lower surge risks outweigh the cost of the set up and risk of damage due to decreased ground clearence.

 

Asking all those who have this set up and so have the experience

 

Btw. To me is does from what I have read and been told

Edited November 6, 2009 by wardy18

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

No issues for me Si. It's just a road car though, with -35mm Eibach's, Gp N top mounts & 309 rear beam height matched.

 

This doesn't clearly show the ground clearance, but it shows the GTI6 sump (with the huge front casting ground off) and the thickness of the spacer/stiffener plate.

 

I agree it could be a concern for motorsport, particularly if you're a fair bit lower than -35mm.

Edited November 7, 2009 by DrSarty