[race_prep] Turbo Hill Climb Project

[DamirGTI 342]

Anyway here's some pictures of the damaged liner and one of the head where it's easy to see the guilty one.

 

All the very best guys

O.T.

 

 

 

Just spotted this now , i had identical liner crack issue fey years ago

 

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=81375

 

Anyways , interesting project ! good luck with it

 

D

[opticaltrigger 52]

Thanks for the comments guy's.

Yeh,that whole thing with the wide band error was really scary because we put trust in the readings and they were wrong.And wrong in the lean direction aswell,as the plugs showed.

The problem was that the fuel pump was failing and the engine was lean on boost.

We actually run the wide band sensor at 12 o'clock but affter what you said unariciflocos we will move it to the 1 o'clock position.

 

The liner spliting was terrible at the time but that's racecar engines for you I guess.Interesting how your liner split in the same place as ours,i.e on the thickest part of the liner.

 

Over the last few days we have managed to finaly come up with a rod and piston combination that works.The pistons as mentioned above are Forged Wossner MI16 turbo 83.5mm units and the rods are going to be the same.All running in the new Westwood ductile liners which are currently at the machine shop being bored out from 83mm to 83.5mm.

Once we get all that back it will be time to do a dry build and see if the valves clear the pistons because the compresion heights,piston crown shapes and the cam are all different,were also geting rid of the decompression plate.Any interference and the pistons will need machining.

 

Rich has been very busy with it all maticulously cleaning all the bits prior to the build.The block is currently undergoing a full overhaull to tidy things up and he also sent a few bits off to the powder coaters which came back the other day and wow powder coating has come along way.

The cam pully cover came back candy apple red and super glossy,the inlet manifold is black and glossy,but the real gem is the intercooler pipes which were powder coated chrome and they look so chrome it's really close to the real thing.

Anyway a few pictures of some of the new shiny bits.

 

All the best

O.T.

 

 

 

 

[opticaltrigger 52]

Hi again,Had somore progress on the engine build this last couple of weeks.

Richie got our local engine shop Hamlins over in Bridgwater to make up a jig to clamp and bore out the new Westwood liners from the standard 83mm they were made at to the 83.5mm oversize that the Wossner pistons are.

Affter some very very good advise from Welshpug and Peter T on the subject (thanks again for that you two) we decided that the best thing to do was to replace the rods with XU9J4 ones to mach the pistons so some maxspeeding ones were ordered up and arrived in two days.

 

Well, theese maxspeeding rods...They are as far as I can tell an exact copy of a Carillo.So much so that I think they must have bought a Carillo some years ago and sent it back to China with a note that said "Millions of theese please".I mean honestly if it did'nt say maxspeeding up the side you would'nt know.

Did do quite a bit of research on theese and from what I read they seem to be ok.I had concerns over weather or not the bolts were genuine ARP or not but ARP themselves seem to confirm that indeed they did supply the rod manufacturer in China with genuine ARP bolts.However they no longer supply them with ARP Ultra torque lube though.Another trip to ebay fixed that.

 

After a bit of measuring and trying one on a piston all does seem to be in order.With the rod in the piston there is a clearence of about 1.8mm either side of the 22.5mm small end and the big ends are the standard 24.2mm meaning that the rod is still guided by the crank which is odd as the piston rod combo is all XU9J4 and as far as I know the rod should be guided by the piston.Still, not complaning though as this works out fine for us but I will probably need to lop a mm off the top of the piston though as the compression hieght is 38mm where the standard is 37mm.

 

Anyway here's a few pics of the new bits.

All the best

 

O.T.

 

 

 

[petert 591]

Way too much side clearance but should be ok if big end is the same as 8V.

Edited June 8, 2015 by petert

[opticaltrigger 52]

Yeh,Is'nt that wierd.

The big end is 24.2mm wide but was advertised as 22.4mm.As it happens this is great for us but what about if you really did need them for an XU9J4 build.

The small end is 22.4mm wide as advertised but the Wossner pistons are as you say way to wide for what they are intended..How can this all be.Any thoughts?

 

All the best

O.T.

[opticaltrigger 52]

As a bit of an update, been doing some number crunching the last few days and as far as I can see I will need to remove 1.5mm from the crowns of the Mi16 pistons.This wil lower the volume of the dish from aproximatley 17cc down to 15cc and give a deck height of 0.5mm in the liner.

 

Basing my numbers on a compressed gasket thickness of 1.2mm (I think 1.2 is correct.Please let me know if thats wrong.) and a chamber volume of 37cc with the new bore of 83.5mm and using this calculator http://www.csgnetwork.com/compcalc.html I get to around 8.85:1 as a compression ratio.

The previous build used a 1mm decompression plate and gave around 8.0:1 but the motor can take a bit more than that, so it should help a little in the lower end torque without being to high to worry over to much when in boost.

 

Geting the new pistons has allowed us to ditch the plate which is good but in it's deffence,we tormented that plate with lean mixtures,overheats,and boost spikes but never once did it give out or for that matter even show any sighns of stress so for that reason I have to say I think decomp plates are a very acceptable budget method of lowering a boosted engine's compression and would use one again without hesitation if pistons were not an option and boost was sensible.

 

As soon as the pistons have the 1.5mm removed in the next couple of days we will be in a position to build up the bottom end.Provided that we dont encounter any valve to piston interference problems with the new Cat turbo cam it should go fairly smoothly because we've gathered up nearly all of the bits needed for the rebuild.

 

All the best

O.T.

Edited July 14, 2015 by opticaltrigger

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

How much would the compression be without modifying the pistons?

If you take the crown from the pistons, you might ruin the squish area and make it more sensitive to detonation.

If there is already a severe gap between crown and head, it's no issue.

[petert 591]

Why not use a thicker copper head gasket?

[opticaltrigger 52]

Hi Wicked, Pete, good to hear from you, hope your both well.

If I put the pistons in as they are they would sit 1mm above deck and turn round just a click under 10:1.The factory squish area in the head has been totaly removed now, in fact it's almost a hemi up there now and I think that, combined with the 0.5mm of deck clearance that we will get should keep us clear of detonation.The piston crowns wont really change shape much Wicked allthough the exhaust valve notches will be mostly removed by the time you lower the rim of the crown the 1.5mm's. But it does reduce the volume of the dish in the crown by aproximatley 2cc's though.

With the gasket Pete,we did look at a copper one some time back but the standard Payen ones seem to work really really well,in fact faultlessly and combined with cost and just simple availability it seemed the way to go.

 

Anyway guy's thanks for the comments, it's allways great to have your thought's on it.Very much appreiciated.

All the very best

O.T.

[welshpug 1,662]

gasket is 1.4 mm on alloy xu engine, 84mm bore iirc.

[petert 591]

You can buy a 2.0 mm copper gasket if that helps.

[opticaltrigger 52]

Thanks Welshpug and Pete,

I made the correction for the 1.4mm Welshpug,brings it out at 8.7:1.Thanks for that.

And thanks again for the heads up on the gasket Pete but I got the pistons back today all done with the 1.5mm removed.

 

Here's a picture of the piston.You can see that the exhaust valve notches have almost been removed.

 

All the best

O.T.

 

[opticaltrigger 52]

Small update,

Richie picked up the block this morning from the powder coaters aswell as the sump and cam cover.The block and cam cover are done candy red and the sump black.They look great.

By all accounts from the powder coater,the block was very difficult to do and time consuming but the results are just great.

 

With all the bits in place now (baring valve springs and followers) we should be able to make some headway and start doing a build up of the bottom end at least.The head is all cleaned up but we have to still install the new exhaust valves,springs,and followers,and cam.

 

Anyway here's a few pic's of the block now it's powder coated and one of it as it was with just paint for comparison.Should look good when it's all together again in the engine bay.

 

All the best

O.T.

 

Block as it was with just paint.

Powder coated.

 

 

The cam cover.

And sump.

[opticaltrigger 52]

Just got theese emailed over.There the ones that the powder coater took while masking up,shows how clean he got it.

 

All the best

O.T.

 

 

 

 

 

[opticaltrigger 52]

Been back on the project again so I thought it a good time to do a quick update.

 

Yet another issue cropped up with the pistons again yesterday.

We started building the bottom end up again with the new rods pistons and liners only to find that at just before BDC the crank counter wieghts hit the bottom of the pistons right under the wrist pin boss.AGGHHH!!!

So stripped it all appart again and took them down to see the machine shop for a quick shave this morning.

 

These Wossner XU9J4 pistons have been a real chalenge from the start really.The first thing was the crowns had to be machined off 1.5mm for the compression hieght then wieredly enough they are made as per 8v where the rod is still guided by the crank instead of the pin which should be the case for XU9J4 pistons and now we find that the bottom of the piston hits the crank at BDC.

 

Unless I'm missing something obvious, I am really begining to think they could be rogue pistons.But Wossner is a propper firm so it's hard to imagine.

 

All the best

O.T.

[opticaltrigger 52]

Went over to the car today to build up the bottom end again and success.

The clearance we had machined under the pistons was sufficient to clear the crank and now it's bottom end is all back together again with the new rods, pistons, and Westwood liners.

Got the oil pump fixed back in to.

Next stage now will be to get some new lifters and springs and get the head back on with the new Cat turbo cam in.

 

What a stress these Wossner Mi16 pistons have been from start to finish.But there done now.

Will try and take some pictures of the engine in the week.

 

All the best

O.T.

[opticaltrigger 52]

We got a few more bits done on the engine today so I thought I'd do an update with a few pictures from earlier today.

 

Got the bottom end internals bolted up last week end but we got the oil sump, crankshaft oil seals, and some of the other ancillaries bolted up today

Just need to get the cylinder head finished now with some new exhaust valves, followers, and valve springs and we should be getting there then.

The powder coated block is looking really good now.

 

Anyway here's a few pictures from earlier.

All the best

O.T.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2015 by opticaltrigger

[opticaltrigger 52]

Small update,

Got the cylinder head all built back up today.

 

We replaced all the exhaust valves and replaced all of the valve springs to.

We also replaced all of the cam followers today and also all the studs and nuts for the cam bearing caps as the threads on the original ones had become very tired.

Also installed the new Cat turbo cam to.

 

Only one set back though the cylinder head bolts were the wrong length and will have to go back.

At the moment the head still needs to have the valve clearances done and then it will be ready to go back on. Going to order some new flywheel bolts to.

 

Anyway, here's a couple of pics of the head with the new valves etc, and Cat turbo cam installed.

All the best

O.T.

 

 

[Anthony 1,003]

I can't believe all the grief you're having with this!

 

Still, almost there now and hopefully there will be no more grief or problems.

 

Keep posting the updates

[dcc 855]

What's the deal with the exhaust ports?

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

Respect for all the work; will it be a nice Xmas with the engine in the bay??

 

Think you're the first one with candy red engine on this forum.... fancy!

Edited December 21, 2015 by wicked

[opticaltrigger 52]

Hi gents,and thanks for the comments and support.

 

I can't believe all the grief you're having with this!

Still, almost there now and hopefully there will be no more grief or problems.

Keep posting the updates

Hi Anthony,

It's been madness really.The pistons were really taxing though but as you say almost there now.and the engine has some good new features this time round to. It'll be interesting to see how much power it makes on the dyno when we get it done. I've no idea at the moment.

The next possible issue that could crop up is valve to piston clearance's but my gut feeling is that it'll be ok. I'll pop some Plasticine on the piston crowns and see what were dealing with before the head finally gets torqued down.

 

 

What's the deal with the exhaust ports?

Hi Dan,

If you mean the "D" shape.I find that it helps gas flow by giving a larger area around the bottom of the port where the radius is much tighter and the gas speed is slower.Although in the picture the corners of the port look very tight, there is actually a sensible radius there.The gaskets are copper ones.

 

 

Respect for all the work; will it be a nice Xmas with the engine in the bay??

 

Think you're the first one with candy red engine on this forum.... fancy!

Hey Wicked,

Thanks very much, very kind of you to say.

Y'eh, the candy red looks really good especially with the black parts to. I don't know if it's the first but it's the first one I've seen.

Powder coating has come such a long way now and the color choice is immense thees days.

Don't think it'll be ready for Christmas though.

 

Anyway,

All the very best guy's and thanks very much for all the input.

 

O.T.

Edited December 21, 2015 by opticaltrigger

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

It will make nice power on the dyno...

A friend of mine has this cam on his 2.0TCT with GT28. It took DP engineering a lot of runs to get it smooth in all corners, but the result was impressive. (300+ bhp).

With your turbo/setup I would say 250-260 bhp should be feasible on the dyno of DP.

 

Looking back in your topic:

​

 

Why don't you put the air filter directly on the turbo; now you take effort to route it to a hot place?

[opticaltrigger 52]

Hi Wicked,

It never was very satisfactory there.I agree with you completely.

The turbo is being moved and all those changes are going to be made to it.

 

If we get 250 / 260 we'd be very happy indeed.

[Spesh 31 1 Cars]

Just read through the whole thread this morning and its some impressive work, nice to see you've actually posted your mistakes too - many don't. A ton of helpful information in here