[race_prep] Turbo Hill Climb Project

[Galifrey 1]

Looking like some really nice work OT.

 

Will be one of the cleanest 205's on the forum

 

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

Looks good, as its for a hillclimb car have you considered a lightweight alternator, the standard one is a heavy lump. Also a alloy pulley is available from a mate of mine, www.force-racing.co.uk/non-mini-components

[allye 530 3 Cars]

Looks like a outboard fuel tank I used to have!? Great car, look forward to seeing the rest and the finished product!

 

Cheers, Ali

[opticaltrigger 52]

Thanks very much guys,

the tank is from a marine supplier in southend,it meets all the same materials spec as a racing fuel cell just a fraction of the cost so I thought get one in and have a look.(Cheap skate really)

Thanks for the tip also Tom.I saw on your photos that you had one of the pulleys and did'nt know where to go for one.They look great to.What about the alternators Tom,where do you go for the lighter ones?

 

Cheers guys

O.T.

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

A lighter alternator can be got from plenty of small Japanese cars, there is a nice small Nippon Denso unit out there, try Suzuki Swifts in your local breakers. Obviously you will need to do some work adapting the brackets to fit.

[opticaltrigger 52]

Just a few more pics of whats been happening over the hollidays.

The floor pan has been modified a bit to cope with the seat frames and lower the seats a bit to and there is a few pics of the air filter bracket which now carries the air flow meter all in one unit.

 

The gear box is back together with it's diff installed and ready to go.

 

Next step is now to fit the motor into the chasiss so work can commence on the exhaust manifold.It's starting to come together now and sooner or latter it's gona be time to look at a dry build.

Will do somore pics soon when the motors in.

 

P.s. Just to show how cold it is there's Ritch freezing in his shed,where all the magic happens.

 

All the best O.T.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2010 by opticaltrigger

[davenport 51]

some very very nice fabrication gone into the car... top marks...

 

the whole optical thing still confuses me but i applaud your work...

[opticaltrigger 52]

Thanks Davenport.

The optical thing is quite simple in theory but not so in practice im affraid.

I've just finished working on it and its the first time i've been back to it in weeks.Most of the time i've been messing about with other stuff.

The reason I decided to climb into the optical units in the first place was because I wanted to run one standard ignition coil per plug.The reasoning being that those coils realy are Tonka and deliver a super high output in order for it to deal with all the obstructions the current must negotiate before finaly having to jump the plug,such as the carbon brush in the cap,then the resistivity of the rotor,then the gap between the rotor and cap,the primary and secondary H.T. leads,and finally what ever's left over affter all that can have a go at jumping the plug gap in an enviroment that's not very good at letting sparks happen (Just re-read that,what a rant!).

 

Anyway,so by fixing one of those coils on a very short H.T. lead directly to the spark plug,there is a very,very large amount of energy on tap,many times higher than is available through the standard route.What all this potential energy does in a nut shell is it allows for a very large plug gap.And in turbo applications ignition systems are having to work very hard at delivering a solid hot spark even on a relativley small plug gap,so with this I can have a very solid spark across a quite large gap which is good for overall ignition and rapid flame front propergation.In short more power delivered faster.

 

So the next step was how do I get all those coils firing at the right place and time.The answer is allready part done as the standard distributor has a reluctor inside of it which is timed to 90 degree increments.The reluctor sends a sine wave pulse of about 12 volts (varies depending on speed) to the standard ignition amplifier which switches off the coil,collapsing the magnetic field in it and therby creating the spark voltage in it's secondary windings.

The optical units which you see in the pics are used to either conect or disconect the supply voltage to the ignition amplifiers.By using four amplifiers,one for each coil I can take the wire from the side of the distributor which carries the pulse from the reluctor and piggy back it to all four amplifiers.Now the upper most optical sensor in the picture is counting a pulse every time the chopper wheel comes round and blocks the infrared beam,the chopper wheel segments are lined up with the four prongs of the reluctor that you see in the top of the distributor so as the chopper segment first breaks the beam a small pulse tell's a little microcontroller to switch on the power to an ignition amplifier then folowing just behind is the reluctor prong which pulses the now switched on amplifier to create the spark.As the reluctor prong passes over the back side of the chopper wheel comes round far enough to let the infrared beam pass again and switch off the power to the amplifier.

The lower optical sensor has only one segmented wheel which is lined up with one of the four segments directly above it and also one of the standard reluctor prongs.This sensor is used to tell the microcontroller that the sgment of the chopper wheel on the upper sensor is to switch on the amplifier for coil number one and after that the program knows that all three remaing pulses on that sensor are to folow the firing order untill the one segmented wheel comes around again and triggers number one amplifier again,and the process begins again.The single segment sensor is also used so that when you switch off the engine the program knows to wait untill it see's the single pulse again before runing the firing order program,because it has no way of knowing where the engine landed when it stopped.

 

All the best O.T.

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2010 by opticaltrigger

[davenport 51]

ahhhh i see.....

 

god only knows how you go about writing the software to transfer the signal into something useable as i`ve only just fathomed out what the "switch" itself is...

 

respect is due...

Edited January 3, 2010 by davenport

[opticaltrigger 52]

Work has been progressing with the build so we thought we'd stick a few pic's in of whats been going on.

The motor's still not in yet but there's been plenty to do.

Rich has been beavering away on the inside with the dashboard panell,fuel tank area,and the seat frames.And I've finaly got the sequential firing program up and running.It's not a finished product yet but the development board is now ready to transfer to a propper PCB for final instalation in the car.It runs butifully firing all four coils sequentialy throughout the RPM range.

The fuel tank bay in the cockpit area has come out very nice,with plenty of room left to mount the pumps and fillters etc.

The dash board really is a jem,it fits a treat and weighs very,very little and also gives us plenty of scope for mounting all the electronics out of the way.

The motor is next on the major list of things to get on with and as soon as the clutch arrives it will be going in,which will mean we can deal with making the manifold for the turbocharger.

Anyway here's the pictures.

 

All the best O.T.

 

Body stuff

 

[opticaltrigger 52]

A few pics of the motor and some ignition bits and bobs

 

The prototype board with it's programed PIC

 

The waveform showing the factory reluctor pulse coinciding with the optical output

The red trace is the reluctor pulse,the blue is the optical sensors switching

 

The engine waiting to go in

Edited February 17, 2010 by opticaltrigger

[ilovemypug 1]

ill tell ya something... that engine is one hell of a optical trigger hehehe... looking good.. great stuff

[rescue dude 0]

Looks good but with a turbocharged engine you'll be put into the Sports Libre class on hillclimbs.

[opticaltrigger 52]

Hi RD,

Not really sure what the sports libre class entails to be honest,but I'm guessing it's some pretty serious motors?

What does it involve?

Anyway it's all good fun along the way.

 

Thanks and all the best

O.T.

[rescue dude 0]

Hi RD,

Not really sure what the sports libre class entails to be honest,but I'm guessing it's some pretty serious motors?

What does it involve?

Anyway it's all good fun along the way.

 

Thanks and all the best

O.T.

 

Absolutey. I'm not knocking your project in any way , it looks really good, but you are correct that Sports Libre is pretty serious.

To be honest if you want to run in a competitive class a turbo charged 205 in Libre isn't the way to go.

 

You could find youself up against bike engined Caterfields, full blown group B cars or this.

 

Do you have a copy of the MSA 'Blue book'? Everything is explained there.

 

There is a lot of difference between Libre and Mod Prod particularly when it comes to safety. For starters you'll need a 6 point harness.

Edited February 18, 2010 by rescue dude

[bales 1]

Looks good but with a turbocharged engine you'll be put into the Sports Libre class on hillclimbs.

 

You just said the exact point I was going to make!!

 

I looked into hillclimbing with a turbo 205 but unfortunately the only class you can go in is sports libre which is pretty much anything goes.

 

I know its not the be all and end all to some people but if you want to be competitive I would have thought you would need 4wd and 400bhp+ at a minimum.

 

There is some seriously silly stuff in sports libre

 

For example that Nick Manns gas turbine spooled BDA powered 4wd thingy runs in sports libre and that is mind bending to watch, think it has been measured at 2.something to 60 and pulls 2g off the line!!

 

Edited to add - oops didn't check the youtube link someone got there before me!

Edited February 18, 2010 by bales

[rescue dude 0]

You just said the exact point I was going to make!!

 

I looked into hillclimbing with a turbo 205 but unfortunately the only class you can go in is sports libre which is pretty much anything goes.

 

I know its not the be all and end all to some people but if you want to be competitive I would have thought you would need 4wd and 400bhp+ at a minimum.

 

There is some seriously silly stuff in sports libre

 

For example that Nick Manns gas turbine spooled BDA powered 4wd thingy runs in sports libre and that is mind bending to watch, think it has been measured at 2.something to 60 and pulls 2g off the line!!

 

Edited to add - oops didn't check the youtube link someone got there before me!

 

 

It's allegedly about 500 brake and does the 64 foot mark at Shelsley in quite a bit less than 2 seconds regularly.

 

Looks like OT is building himself a nice car but i would stay away from Libre.

 

There used to be a car called the SPA Judd in over 2 litre Libre which was basically a Le Mans style sports racer with an ex F1 Judd engine and was about 800 brake.

[rescue dude 0]

This is Libre too.

 

It's basically a Ford RS200 puts out around 800 brake on full boost.

Edited February 18, 2010 by rescue dude

[opticaltrigger 52]

Oh yeah!!!,I get it.The video link above puts it into perspective now.

Well,This is my first day at the 205 world and I've learned somthing there gents.I'm a drag racer type by heart really but Rich wanted to go hill climbing didnt he.I think he might be having a change of heart there when he see's thiss.

 

Are there any competitive drag racing events for 205's that you can enter in turbo cars to or perhaps some sprint days that go on?.You see I'm not that well up on the events side of stuff in 205 world so any help there would be greatly appreciated.

Once again I really do appreciate the input guys so thanks very much for it.

 

Best wishes

O.T.

[rescue dude 0]

You would be in Libre in sprints too.

 

The Sports Libre class isn't very well supported so you may find youself in a class of one, or a handful at most so it's not very enjoyable from that point.

 

I can't help you with drag racing as it's not my cup of tea.

 

Not enough corners.

[Batfink 201]

Get it on track then instead. Should be a weapon if you can get the traction.

Would your ignition be useful on a n/a engine or is it really only worth it for turbos?

 

Kev

[opticaltrigger 52]

Well tracks seems to be the way to go then if you want a bit of fun and competition,and thanks for the info guys.

I guess with track work suspension is the key to good traction affter the differential.

 

The ignition will work really well on N/A,in fact it would be a more straight forward instalation as there wouldnt be any boost/timing calculations to do and you could rely on your existing timing system for that.It would certainly clear up any flat spots or bogging that can be experienced in the lower range and give a much cleaner burn in the top end also.It should generaly improve everything accross the board.

It is allways beneficial for fast flame front propergation to run a big plug gap that carries a fat hot spark.

Also once that basic platform is installed and running it opens up a whole new set of doors really as it can be expanded upon greatly.

The next step will be to mount four oxygen sensors,one in each manifold runner and then we can start to think about trimming individual fuel and timing curves for each cylinder sequentialy then.But thats for when it's done and I get board with the setup really.

 

All the best

O.T.

Edited February 18, 2010 by opticaltrigger

[petert 588]

Nice work, but I have to admit I struggle with the concept of firing a highly strung turbo engine off the distributor in 2010. Regardless of the trigger type, timing flutter can come from either the cam belt or the tang drive of the dizzy. You have two points of potential failure, whereas a crank fired trigger has none.

[opticaltrigger 52]

I hear what your saying Pete and I have spent some time thinking about it.

However,I feel the posibillity of timing flutter is offset somwhat with regards to the belt because it can only ever be in direct proportion to valve timing fluctuations therby stabilising the effect.But,with regards to the tang drive I agree totaly and it's undeniable that there is going to be flutter there,however affter doing a quick measurement of the clearence and then working it back,the total amount of deviation is less than one degree and then it only has any noticable change of course on the off load,deceleration cycle.I'd like to hear your thoughts back on it if you get chance Pete.

 

As a bit of an update as to whats been hapening latley I thought I would put a few more photos up.

The engine and gearbox are back in as you can see and some paint has been geting splashed around the interior.Rich has made up a couple of foot plates which came out nice and finished the seat brackets to.

Geting there bit by bit.

Anyway here's the pic's

 

All the best

O.T.

 

[opticaltrigger 52]

Had a good few nice sunny days of race car work underway latley,and it's amazing how a bit of sunshine makes you just want to go get working on the car.

Things are starting to look a little more organised in the cockpit area now so I thought I would pop a few pictures of the inside up.The next step is to really get to grips with the electrical system and the new ignition electronics.It all makes perfect sense in my head (well almost) but grafting it all together still makes me have to sit down with a cuppa from time to time.

Anyway,this is all Rich's handy work over the last two days and it's all slowly taking shape.

 

All the best

O.T.