205 Tracking

[All Praise The GTI 3]

right got cadwell on wed but need sort my tracking. ive fitted a 309 powersteering rack so its way out. i adjusted it so looks kinda straight myself but tyres get warm quick. needs to be driven to and from track and obviously on lol.

how can i set it so its ok myself?

thanks

[jimistdt 1]

A thread here about that CLICKY!

 

 

This ones more in-depth http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?s...ackin*++string*

Edited September 6, 2009 by jimistdt

[hcmini1989 16]

A thread here about that CLICKY!

 

 

This ones more in-depth http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?s...ackin*++string*

 

sorry just read that and reading about the +1 and -1 canceling each other out and that is the way i have been tought to do it at college and thats how i do them at work never had any problems its easy to say set them at parerlel 0 degrees but sometimes its impossible to set them at that and have the back wheels running in line thats why you use the overall hence +1 and -1 make 0 and according to autodata it shouldnt be set to 0 it should be towing in 2mm +-1mm if that makes any sense

[hcmini1989 16]

sorry just read that and reading about the +1 and -1 canceling each other out and that is the way i have been tought to do it at college and thats how i do them at work never had any problems its easy to say set them at parerlel 0 degrees but sometimes its impossible to set them at that and have the back wheels running in line thats why you use the overall hence +1 and -1 make 0 and according to autodata it shouldnt be set to 0 it should be towing in 2mm +-1mm if that makes any sense

thats for 4 wheel allignment so correct me if im wrong and sorry for the hijack

[All Praise The GTI 3]

cheers for the info guys but hmm... think il have find some cash get it done properly as dont have time do that. lol

[hcmini1989 16]

cheers for the info guys but hmm... think il have find some cash get it done properly as dont have time do that. lol

i think my local kwik fit only charges around 15 quid

[All Praise The GTI 3]

garage i asked wanted £30 cheeky buggers!!

[James_R 3]

2 bits of wood some string and a ruler?? takes about 30mins to get ti all sorted, and as accurate as monkey's are us.

[MerlinGTI 3]

Nothing beats a good laser 4 wheel alignment machine like the Hunter DSP600/WinAlign. Honestly, you wouldnt belive how a tiny adjustment affects the readings so much. Sure other methods will 'work' fine, but to get it spot on perfect it will need a propper geo. The front is always adjusted to suit the rear, Thrust angles and all that, I dont see how this can be done suitably with bits of string and shizzle.

 

Any large bodyshops in you area will have decent geo equiptment, but prices will vary wildly! IIRC we used to charge £140 Only takes me 10 mins to do, robbing gits.

 

I dont like the idea of machines like the beizebar setup, where you have to jack the wheels off the ground to do the run out, as obviously all the angles change! So I would personally avoid companies that use this brand. I know all of the bigger Audi garages near me have the same setup which gives cool 3D printouts and doesnt need jacking to do the run out.

 

Makes me warm and fuzzy inside

Edited September 6, 2009 by MerlinGTI

[hcmini1989 16]

Nothing beats a good laser 4 wheel alignment machine like the Hunter DSP600/WinAlign. Honestly, you wouldnt belive how a tiny adjustment affects the readings so much. Sure other methods will 'work' fine, but to get it spot on perfect it will need a propper geo. The front is always adjusted to suit the rear, Thrust angles and all that, I dont see how this can be done suitably with bits of string and shizzle.

 

Any large bodyshops in you area will have decent geo equiptment, but prices will vary wildly! IIRC we used to charge £140 Only takes me 10 mins to do, robbing gits.

 

I dont like the idea of machines like the beizebar setup, where you have to jack the wheels off the ground to do the run out, as obviously all the angles change! So I would personally avoid companies that use this brand. I know all of the bigger Audi garages near me have the same setup which gives cool 3D printouts and doesnt need jacking to do the run out.

 

Makes me warm and fuzzy inside

nice bet that cost a bomb we use the old balcho one hang on the wheel type does the job ,aybe not as good as that one though .car looks mint aswell

[philfingers 5]

I bought a set of dunlop gauges on ebay for £125 3 years ago. Easier than string! It's alright saying you adjust the front to match the back but the only thing you can adjust as std is the tracking on the left wheel and the tracking on the right. It's either parallel, toe in or out. And ideally we'd have the steering wheel set straight ahead.

[Alastairh 47]

My local garage has the same setup as hcmini1989 pictured. They charge £25 for a simple car like a 205, but £100+ for the likes of my Dads Audi etc.

 

Never had a problem with them, always been 100% and i've had a fair few cars done.

 

Al

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

I always use the Hunter too at my local place, Set charge of £30.00 no matter what I've taken down, Win some and loose some theory they work on

[hcmini1989 16]

My local garage has the same setup as hcmini1989 pictured. They charge £25 for a simple car like a 205, but £100+ for the likes of my Dads Audi etc.

 

Never had a problem with them, always been 100% and i've had a fair few cars done.

 

Al

100 quid f**k me thats dear whats so special about the audi we charge 25 quid for it no matter what car it is hardest ones i ever had to do have been land rovers only because they seize up really bad

[Craigb 2]

Did mine with two bits of string before the weekends road rally , and it was the best its ever been

 

Alignments done at tyre places are only as good as the person doing the job . There's one near me that I use and I ring up to see if Dave is working or not , because if his mate does it , its never quite right, and having the yellow stripe on teh steering wheel off centre really bugs me .

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

My dad used to have his own garage business so I've now got his Dunlop optical gauges. I can get them spot on using these, and centring up the steering wheel is also a simple job when you have your head around what to adjust which way.

[philfingers 5]

and having the yellow stripe on teh steering wheel off centre really bugs me .

 

Yep, agreed. And sometimes you can't take the wheel off and move it one notch to line up.. . .. .. infuriating! Could put a wider piece of tape over the top I suppose!

[jackherer 543]

And sometimes you can't take the wheel off and move it one notch to line up..

 

You should NEVER take the wheel off and move it, there is only one correct position that has equal amounts of lock in each direction, anything else will result in messed up ackermann angles even if the toe is set perfectly.

 

This is one reason why its worth getting a 205 (or any car even if front toe is the only adjustable parameter) set up on a proper alignment rig like a Hunter as described above. It doesn't just take static measurements, the steering is moved through 20 degrees or so in each direction which can reveal a wide range of issues that a knowledgeable user (and most of them don't have a clue sadly) can then use to infer bent suspension components or incorrectly centered racks with great accuracy.

[jimistdt 1]

I find all this very interesting. I understand the Ackermann principle in theory, whereby the inside and outside tyres of a vehicle when turning would need to turn at differing angles due the the radius being tighter on the inside.

 

The bit that worries me Jackherer is when you've put never, in big letters, take the wheel off and move it. My wheels been off and moved and the distance of the TRE bolts from where the track rod ends is equal, but the steering wheels turns further one way than the other.

 

So is my only option now to get it set up as you've described above, re the Hunter rig, or is it possible with a bit of time and the right theory to get it back as it should be using DIY methods?

Edited September 7, 2009 by jimistdt

[jackherer 543]

I've got a rack centered perfectly by eye before, as it is on splines its possible to get it dead on fairly easily. I turned the steering wheel to full lock one way, noted the angle and then turned it the other way and noted the variation in angle then repositioned the wheel and tried it again until I got it equal. Then I locked the wheel in the straight ahead position and set the toe using a simple laser toe alignment system (not a proper geo machine) which was later checked on a Hunter and shown to be central.

 

I had to take the left road wheel off as it was hitting the gearbox and stopping the rack from getting full lock, but this is probably only necessary with a six speed.

[philfingers 5]

yes fair comment. I should elaborate.

I always make sure the exposed threads on the tie rods are the same both sides once tracking is set. Then and only then do i move the wheel. moving it one spline isn't going to make a noticeable difference. I'm not talking about moving it 20degs or so, just one spline, maybe two

 

Phil

[jackherer 543]

Even one or two splines is too much IMO, it results in steering which is slightly heavier in one direction than the other.

 

I don't think exposed threads is a reliable measure either, even if the TREs are the same brand, the inner track rods might be different. The haynes manual suggests measuring the total track rod lengths from inner balljoint to outer balljoint but I find it hard to measure accurately and you have to pull the gaitors back to do it which gets messy.

 

The best method I have found (apart from using a proper geo machine) is to turn the steering wheel both ways as described earlier before setting the toe.

 

Some cars (porsche is the only one I know of) have a slot in the steering rack for a locking pin to go into when the rack is dead centre for use when setting the toe, I don't understand why all cars don't have one, it would make life so much easier. It has crossed my mind that the steering rack on a gti6 (which has limited lock in one direction) must be impossible to setup accurately again once the steering wheel/rack/column has been removed without a geo machine as even with the steering wheel centered it will hit the lock limit on each side at a different point.

[philfingers 5]

certainly the 309 PAS arms are around 10mm longer than the ones on my 205 PAS rack (309 one is fitted anyway as I knew the history of it- arms were replaced) But yes unless you fitted the arms yourself then there could be a 10mm difference side to side, which would make a significant difference