205 Gt16 Handling Package Options

[Dazza 4]

Hi ,

 

I thought i would start a thread to get me considering the possibilities of improving the cars handling for the Track , a kind of review and over haul of what we have presently .

 

The car set-up feels to slightly understeer, albeit the diff and AO48'S Kind-off sorts that out, and its absolutely solid on the road ...when you get it into the fast corners it just sets itself up and stays there , I am quite happy , just feel there's more to be had ...

 

The present set up now 7 years old.

 

Front

Koni Adjustable Macphersons -50 mm uprated springs, GP N top mounts

Poly-bushed 205 H/D wishbones (newish)

Newly refurbed Hubs

Brand new 205 Drive shafts

Standard roll bar , poly bushed.

 

Rear

Koni Adjustables -40mm ride height

Newly refurbed beam

Group N mounts

25mm roll bar

23mm T/B's

 

 

So whats your thoughts , iam looking to improve the set-up to proven advantages over what i have , I have driven my old 205 which has the Gaz gold and the 309 wishbones and quite liked it , there is also the rear camber kits available ...

 

Iam interested in the BBM or similar top mounts to get some camber-castor into the equasion , setting to work to would be useful ..

 

Can we use the BBM top mount with my Koni's ?

 

So come on fella's tell me more ...

Edited August 30, 2009 by Dazza

[Dazza 4]

Has anyone tried the Compbrake lower rosejointed wishbones ? and will these clear the ARB and so on ...

[James_R 3]

Depends very much on how much road the car will see, as you're trying to strike a balance.

 

With the front end I'd just go straight to a coil over then you can get the right spring rate rather than an "uprated" one whatever that means.

 

Geometry again depends on your sus you're running and also on how you drive the car. With the tyres you're using and stiffer suspension 3-4deg on the front and around 2.5 on the rear parallel toe on both ends, std castor angle.

[Cameron 16]

"Uprated" is probably my most hated internet word.

 

What James said. You should be looking at 300-350lb springs with those tyres, and you'll need your dampers matched to the springs, i.e not just whack a stiffer set on. Get it all solid mounted too.

 

Also, what kind of chassis prep have you got? If it is caged you'll be able to get away with a stiffer setup.

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

Iam interested in the BBM or similar top mounts to get some camber-castor into the equasion , setting to work to would be useful ..

 

Can we use the BBM top mount with my Koni's ?

No, with the standard sized springs on your Koni's you have almost no adjustment before they catch the inner wing & the top mounts are made for use with long spindle struts so won't fit the Koni's.

 

As said, to look at fitting eccentric top mounts you need to have either coilover fronts shocks or at least the narrow bodied Bilstein struts & suitable poundage springs.

 

I've trying to work out what rate springs I need to use with my Koni or Bilstein front struts matched to the 21mm rear bars for road & track use but also to try & stop it cocking a wheel on track during cornering. What ever I need won't be available off the shelf.

 

I'm currently thinking something around 200lb, any thoughts about this?

 

Graham.

[taylorspug 7]

Coilovers with 300lb springs and either eccentric or Baker BM mounts to wind in caster and camber would be my first port of call with your current setup. Keep the 205 beam, same spec 309 one will make the turn in worse and you will have to go alot wider on the front to recover it like ive done.

[Cameron 16]

200lb seems a little soft for track use, depends how comfortable you want it to be on the road.

[Dazza 4]

Sorry James and Cameron ....why I used that word , a man of my experience eh.. .... Albeit I fully understand the merkyness that word employs ...

 

Shall we say it another way than the sales presons verbal patter .... they are quite good to be honest ..

 

Since I posted this I have done some research and not have my route to the kind off handling adjustments required , this is mostly geometry based rather than damper alterations at this stage .

 

This will be done over the Autumn period and i will try to post the details as and when ..

[Dazza 4]

200lb seems a little soft for track use, depends how comfortable you want it to be on the road.

 

The 205 is now no longer a road going mode of transport ...my licence and spinal vertibrae are remaining clean and intact ..., the M fills the gap for the road ..

[Tom Fenton 1,540]

I use 225lb springs on the road with no problem at all.

[taylorspug 7]

So am I, ive also no complaints with them for road use, they seem more than good enough on track too after the weekend. Certainly a very good compromise between the two types of use. Although i would probably go slightly harder for AO48s though.

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

I'm not going to be running A048's just yet but I'll search out some 225lb springs.

 

Tom & Dan, you're running them on coilovers yeah?

 

Just wondering what free length etc I need for using them on Koni's.

 

Graham.

[Dazza 4]

I'm not going to be running A048's just yet but I'll search out some 225lb springs.

 

Tom & Dan, you're running them on coilovers yeah?

 

Just wondering what free length etc I need for using them on Koni's.

 

Graham.

 

Graham when you find a 225lb spring for us old school platform strut fans let me know pal and order me a set to ..

 

Iam using the Koni's with a 40 or 50mm drop and it has been known to bottom out once or three times on bad tarmac area's

Edited September 2, 2009 by Dazza

[James_R 3]

From a Quick google of cusotm springs appears the 4x4 types use Faulkner for customs springs;

 

"You want to chat to Falkners, as they will design and custom wind any spring for you, at very reasonable prices. I have just order 8 springs for the racer, and was very impressed with the service and price. I haven't received the springs yet, but the order is being turned around very quickly (2 weeks for a custom designed and manufactured product). Assuming the springs are as good as the service, I will have no hesitation in using them again. Other friends who have used them have been more than happy with the product.

 

For info, they supply springs to Milners, Prodrive, Prolinx, White Power, Demon Tweeks and other high profile motorsport supplier.

 

D. Faulkner Springs LLP,

Greensleeves, Northfields Lane,

Westergate,

Chichester,

West Sussex, PO20 3UH

ENGLAND.

 

+44 (0)1243 543049

+44 (0)1243 542133

sales@dfaulknersprings.com

 

And you want to speak to Peter!"

 

Good luck

[taylorspug 7]

Graham- Im using 8in free length springs on Leda coilovers.

[Tom Fenton 1,540]

I think mine are 9's, on Gaz coilovers.

[oli-pug 6 2 Cars]

I'm currently running Gaz gold with 350lb 8inch free length, approx -2.5 to 3 degree negative camber and 10mins toe out for a keener turn in. It's my only car so use it daily

 

I'd say anything below 300lb will possibly be too soft for british tracks if you're running A048's.

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

Thanks for the info James, I'll try to make a few calls tomorrow & get a rough price for the 225lb springs to fit standard shock struts. I just got a few addresses & numbers for some firms in Sheffield to try as well.

 

8-9" free length is OK when you're using coilovers, if its to low or to high you can wind the locking collars to a more desired height but we don't have the adjustability you have.

 

I have seen 205 lowering springs in a similar free length but I don't know what drop they give because I've never fitted them. (I have some downstairs I got of Anthony with some Billies struts).

 

Dazza, it sounds like we both want the same springs so that'll hopefully make it cheaper for us both.

 

Graham.

[Dazza 4]

Thanks for the info James, I'll try to make a few calls tomorrow & get a rough price for the 225lb springs to fit standard shock struts. I just got a few addresses & numbers for some firms in Sheffield to try as well.

 

8-9" free length is OK when you're using coilovers, if its to low or to high you can wind the locking collars to a more desired height but we don't have the adjustability you have.

 

I have seen 205 lowering springs in a similar free length but I don't know what drop they give because I've never fitted them. (I have some downstairs I got of Anthony with some Billies struts).

 

Dazza, it sounds like we both want the same springs so that'll hopefully make it cheaper for us both.

 

Graham.

 

Hopefully , i will want atliest a 40mm lower ride hieght though ., let me know pal , youve got my number .

 

Thanks D

[welshpug 1,655]

Faulkners do a 106 30mm drop 155 LB spring which is very popular, would imagine as mentioned that they'd do something to suit very easily.

 

my one concern with standard size springs of a higher spring rate will exceed the capabilities of the dampers as they aren't designed to take roughly double the LB/inch, whereas the tarmac Bilstein inserts for the ride height adjustable bodies were.

[Bas 6 1 Cars]

Coilovers with 300lb springs and either eccentric or Baker BM mounts to wind in caster and camber would be my first port of call with your current setup. Keep the 205 beam, same spec 309 one will make the turn in worse and you will have to go alot wider on the front to recover it like ive done.

 

The Baker BM Top Mounts are still coming "soon".

 

http://www.bakerbm.com/205.php?data=205soon

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

Hopefully , i will want atliest a 40mm lower ride hieght though.

So do I, well I want it slightly lower than it is now which is with the Koni kit springs fitted that are approx 40mm lower than standard but my group N top mount donuts lift it back up approx 5mm.

 

Faulkners do a 106 30mm drop 155 LB spring which is very popular, would imagine as mentioned that they'd do something to suit very easily.

 

my one concern with standard size springs of a higher spring rate will exceed the capabilities of the dampers as they aren't designed to take roughly double the LB/inch, whereas the tarmac Bilstein inserts for the ride height adjustable bodies were.

The koni's will be OK for a slightly uprated spring imo, but if they aren't suited to the 225lb ones I'll use the fixed platform type bilsteins with inserts instead.

 

I was looking through an old Max power a few weeks ago (the one with the 205's Vs testerosa, Oct 93) & one of the cars in that group test was running 140lb springs on Koni shocks (Keith Holden's, chief of the 205 GTI owners club magazine back in 1993) apparently lowered by 63.5mm but it doesn't look like it.

 

Graham.

[NeilGTi85 5]

This is what 60mm look's like:

 

 

 

 

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

This is what 60mm look's like:

 

 

 

 

Thats to low for me & the picture of the car I mention looks nowhere near that low.

 

I've just had a interesting chat with Faulkners about some custom springs, they need to know the spring length when fitted & car on wheels, maximum internal & external coil diameters, difference in ride height to current spring, desired spring rate & one of the current springs to use for testing to calculate the new spring diamensions.

 

They are approx £44 + vat & delivery / spring & have a 10-12 working day lead time.

 

Kev @ Kam racing (Batfink) buys quite a few springs from them.

 

The maximum outside diameter is 155mm for standard struts but feel the inside diameter also has a maximum where it seats on the lower spring pan (~130mm).

 

Graham.

[Dazza 4]

I know Kieth and he still has the old 205 .....

 

60mm drop not for me either , mines about 50mm and its bob-on

 

Looks like were getting somewhere with the springs , the rest i have on order .