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DrSarty

Tandem Mi Engine Build

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kyepan
  DrSarty said:
And the rest! Stop mincing and get your car running! ;)

The air flow will be supported by a high-pressure, low mounted air feed. The heat from the rad and plenum will be shielded by the shield.

fair enough didn't see that, but still think keep it simple, i saw the heat shield, but simply think that why put it somewhere where you need one, when other colder areas exist and have space ready to go :lol:

 

when are you next back ?

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leon 1.9

So you've (or maybe we've) managed about 4 pages just on the air ducting. Haven't even got near the engine yet. It's gonna be a long thread... ;)

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taylorspug
  GLPoomobile said:
Dude, the plastic adaptor isn't the restriction! It's the actual mouth of the AFM! That's what I'm on about, and why I'm confused about what you are suggesting. The plastic adaptor is matched (dimensions wise) to the mouth of the AFM. Taking it off doesn't give you a bigger opening. At least that's the case with all the plastic adaptors I've seen.

 

Although I'm now starting to wonder what plastic adaptor Andy has if it's only 40mm square ;) . Looking at a ruler, that is far too small, and 50odd mm sounds more likely.

 

EDIT: Here's a picture with dimensions of the Green Filters top hat adaptor

 

http://www.green-filter.co.uk/images/Top%2...01V%20Large.jpg

 

I'm pretty sure the K&N style adaptors are more or less the same dimensions as the Green ones, and I'm pretty sure the K&N ones are more or less the same as the OE ones.

 

As you now seem to have been ignored since clarifying your point Steve, i will confirm that the plastic adaptors are the same size as the AFM, so do not cause a restriction. The 'restriction' is the AFM itself.

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DrSarty

I certainly didn't ignore Steve :lol: . I tried to be subtle early on saying that the 40mm size measured seemed bloody small, and Steve's posted picture of the 'top hat' adaptor is how I remember it, and that's 50mm internal square.

 

The plastic adaptor WAS the restriction had it been 40mm as stated. (I can't actually believe I'm explaining this as it's all written in here clear as day).

 

Now we know it's the same size as the AFM, then pretty obviously the AFM itself is the pinch point. I had to show some respect for Andy J taking the time to measure something as I asked, albeit a rather strange size considering Steve's picture. Have we got that cleared up now?

 

And I've always agreed that the AFM is/will be the restriction. What I'm trying to establish is how much? If it'll run 180BHP then it's not far off what I need. But will it flow for 190BHP; as we just might get there (?).

 

No-one is ignored EVER with me; I read everything. Trust me.

 

And yes there's been 4 pages of inlet; why not? It's pretty bloody important don't you think? :lol:

 

I will consider what you've all suggested about siting. I may try and get the washer bottle under the scuttle panel (I've seen that done) and KISS as Justin says. I will however build a heat shroud around the AFM and filter which seals when the bonnet shuts isolating it. If there's one thing you can change on an engine that'll make a difference (hence it being such a big deal on Autospeed and a huge car parts market) it's the nature and position of the air inlet for the engine. I think it's worthy of the discussion.

 

Funny how we're discussing/arguing something so simple and seemingly making life difficult for ourselves when it's all in here, every bit. And what's more you guys are at home or in the workshop or office, and I'm in Helmand province!!!!! ;)

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DrSarty

To make use of my time out here I'm going to make the looms (engine management and feedback) ready for these two installs.

 

I've re-designed and simplified my 2.2 Mi relay box using experience and less components, all from VWP. I shall make a clear coded diagram and list all of the kit parts so anyone can copy it.

 

The engine bay looms should be so simple and tidy and the kit list and diagrams should be useful and easy enough for anyone to understand.

 

Before I commit the design to the forum, I DO HAVE FOUR QUESTIONS ABOUT THE 3-ROW Mi MANAGEMENT systems I'll be using. Can you guys help please?

 

1) Does the 3-row ECU incorporate a knock sensor?

 

2) Does the 3-row ECU make use of a lambda/O2 sensor?

 

3) Does the 3-row ECU use a throttle position switch like on the 1.9 Mi or a throttle position sensor?*

 

4) Does the 3-row ECU injector wiring have the injectors split into banks, i.e 1+4, 2+3?**

 

*I ask this because I'm using the GTI6 inlet which has a TP Sensor so need to prepare for perhaps swapping that to a TP Switch. I'm hoping I don't have to.

 

**I ask this because that's how the Emerald is, and even how Megasquirt recommends powering them via 2 separate 5amp fused lines because the ECU has separate ground switching outputs for the 2 pairs/banks. I appreciate it may just have 1 ground switching output to fire all 4, but 1 or 2 makes a difference slightly to the relay box. That's why I need to know.

 

And I'd very much appreciate it if someone would post a pin-out list and or diagram for the 3-row ECU connector.

 

In fact I'd be interested in buying a 3-row Mi ECU loom to use as a master and triple check everything and make the loom as tidy and economical as possible. Anyone got one?

 

Thanks in advance for your help.

Edited by DrSarty

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Anthony
  DrSarty said:
1) Does the 3-row ECU incorporate a knock sensor?

2) Does the 3-row ECU make use of a lambda/O2 sensor?

3) Does the 3-row ECU use a throttle position switch like on the 1.9 Mi or a throttle position sensor?*

4) Does the 3-row ECU injector wiring have the injectors split into banks, i.e 1+4, 2+3?**

1) Yes, 3 row does have a knock sensor. 2 row does not.

2) Non-CAT 3 row ECU's (354/355) do not have a lambda sensor. CAT equiped versions do, but these are very rare here in the UK.

3) It uses a throttle switch, like an 8v.

4) As far as I know 3 row is batch fire (ie all injectors fire at the same time)

Edited by Anthony

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DrSarty

Thanks for the reply Ant.

 

As for Q4, I need to clarify. I think that even the Emerald is batch fire, i.e. all at once, despite having 2 separate firing outputs. What I mean is on the 3-row ECU connector are there 2 or 1 pins dedicated to firing the injectors? My badly worded question.

Edited by DrSarty

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welshpug

On the list I have here its one common power feed from the relay, but signal is earthed via pin 16 for injector 1+2 and 17 for 3+4 :)

 

my file is in a PDF format and too large to be uploaded on here though.

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Anthony
  DrSarty said:
Thanks for the reply Ant. Sorry, I edited my post, added a question and changed the order, but I can still tie up your replies. :)

Fixed it, and answered Q3 as well.

 

My concern with making a new loom would be can you get the ECU connectors new anywhere? Everything else is easily enough obtained, but no idea about the ECU plug...

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welshpug

I think the 3 row plug is pretty common to a lot of vehicles, even the magnetti marelli ecu's use the bosch loom plug.

 

Although I'm not sure if it can be sourced separately, the pins look to be fairly standard ones like the ones in the 2 pin AMP type plugs, so should be easy enough to source from Simetek or VWP and the like.

 

I have actually recently spoken to Simetek to see if they can source the APM keyed and coloured JPT type plugs to suit the various sensors used, just waiting to see what they can find from their sources.

Edited by welshpug

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DrSarty

Anthony>

My plan is to use a pucka, original 3-row ECU connector so I know it mates up, but mount the ECU behind the glovebox and have about 2 feet of pigtail out of the ECU, through the bulkhead via a funky grommet, waterproof 22 pin connector affair for simple removal of the engine. I big bastid plug! :)

 

Something like this:

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/product...products_id=364

 

Depending on Meirion's research it may be possible to buy one new, but the above method will work fine as there'll be nothing wrong with those wires that close to the ECU I would've thought.

 

All of the other connectors (injectors etc) will be either new ones or the orginal ones disassembled and rebuilt as per GLPoo's loom refurbishment thread. The loom wires themselves will be that brilliant, fully print labelled 12foot bundle also from DIY Autotune.

 

I'll post everything up in the kit list when I'm positive how to do this.

 

Welshpug>

OK so that indicates it is batch fire (all at once) but like the Emerald and MS way there are two ground switching triggers.

 

Would you e-mail me the PDF to <rifle556@yahoo.co.uk> please and as I have Adobe Acrobat Professional I can extract the relevant page(s), reduce the file size and post it here for people to access?

 

All>

And where would I fit the knock sensor to the XU9 alloy block?

 

Thanks again everyone.

Edited by DrSarty

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taylorspug
  DrSarty said:
Thanks for the reply Ant.

 

As for Q4, I need to clarify. I think that even the Emerald is batch fire, i.e. all at once, despite having 2 separate firing outputs. What I mean is on the 3-row ECU connector are there 2 or 1 pins dedicated to firing the injectors? My badly worded question.

 

Emerald batch fires in pairs normally (known as semi sequential), if using the Emerald wiring diagram it uses both outputs, 1 and 4, 3 and 2, unless you have a K3 and a cam sensor to get them to fire full sequential.

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welshpug

Email Sent Rich :lol:

 

knock sensor I believe goes on a stud that cross bolts the central main bearing cap.

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Anthony
  welshpug said:
knock sensor I believe goes on a stud that cross bolts the central main bearing cap.

On 1.9 Mi's it does, yes, whereas 2.0 Mi's it's mounted halfway up the block.

 

The stud and knock sensor are only on engines that originally had 3-row looms, so you'll likely have to buy one seperately.

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petert
  DrSarty said:
My plan is to use a pucka, original 3-row ECU connector so I know it mates up, but mount the ECU behind the glovebox and have about 2 feet of pigtail out of the ECU, through the bulkhead via a funky grommet, waterproof 22 pin connector affair for simple removal of the engine. I big bastid plug! :lol:

 

What's wrong with mounting the 3 row ecu in the original place? The 3 row loom is the correct length etc. Why make it more complicated than it needs to be?

post-2864-1249775292_thumb.jpg

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DrSarty

Just to be sure, is that unlabelled picture above showing a knock sensor fitted to an XU10 block by the oil cooler (?).

 

Is there any way of mounting the KS in a similar fashion to the XU9 block?

Edited by DrSarty

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DrSarty

And I'm all for less complicated Pete, although you've now forced me to ask you/everyone where the original ECU mounting location is. I am assuming that perhaps it's in a plastic box by the battery (?).

 

If that is the case then you're right, that simplifies the loom a lot and I could get 2 looms out of the 12ft wiring bundle from DIYAutotune by mounting it in the engine bay. This would leave very few wires needing to go through the bulkhead; off the top of my head them being:

 

* tacho (rev counter) {1}

* ignition switched live {1}

* fuel pump trigger {1}

* oil temp & pressure guages & low pressure warning light {3}

* water temp guage & high temp warning light {2}

* engine crank (solenoid wire) {1}

* manual fan cut in (dash switch) {1}

* alternator non-charging light {1}

 

Giving a total of 11 wires...which is nice.

 

I like this idea.

 

Is there any sort of K-Light or engine management light I need to include in the dash? Does the 3-row ECU have one? Is it essential to have the light which I guiess indicates a fault?

 

So if I get a 3-row loom as a master I can make two fresh duplicates out of only $40 USD of wiring bundle.

 

EDIT:

Welshpug (Meirion) has e-mailed me both the Autodata ECU pin-out charts. I've been through the 3-row document and reduced it in file size to post here as an attachment, and gone through it and highlighted the 22 pins (some are duplicated under different names - mainly earths) that I can see with my limited experience as being needed.

 

There are a few I am currently assuming aren't required and hence are not highlighted, some quite obvious such as aircon, but others I'm not sure about such as:

13, 15, 55 (all 3 are ECM or Data collection - is this diagnostics?)

27, 36 ,37 (all 3 are engine control relays - but for what? - Most of the important stuff I've highlighted)

5 (the EVAP jobby)

10, 19, 28 (O2/Lambda - won't have an ECU which ever used one)

30, 46 (Octane coding plug - WTF?)

42 (starter motor inhibitor relay - is that an immobilisor?)

 

All of the other 'red-boxed' pin outs seem to be the ones needed at minimum.

 

Comments/advice?

405mi16_3RowPinoutREDUCED.pdf

Edited by DrSarty

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petert

The pic. I posted is an XU9J4Z. The original ECU is located above the drivers right knee, under the dash. In Jetronic equipped cars, I use the choke light for the K light. It's usually just a spare wire hanging around near the steering column. You definitely need to have a K light. It's impossible to assess if the engine is running at it's peak without one.

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petert
  DrSarty said:
I'd be interested in buying a 3-row Mi ECU loom

 

Why don't I just sell you a 205 Motronic loom? All you'd need to do is add wires for the knock sensor and idle stepper motor. Then it's complete plug and play with the Mi16 ECU.

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welshpug
  DrSarty said:
There are a few I am currently assuming aren't required and hence are not highlighted, some quite obvious such as aircon, but others I'm not sure about such as:

13, 15, 55 (all 3 are ECM or Data collection - is this diagnostics?)

27, 36 ,37 (all 3 are engine control relays - but for what? - Most of the important stuff I've highlighted)

5 (the EVAP jobby)

10, 19, 28 (O2/Lambda - won't have an ECU which ever used one)

30, 46 (Octane coding plug - WTF?)

42 (starter motor inhibitor relay - is that an immobilisor?)

 

I think some of the listings are more generic to this ecu rather than this specific application which is bloody confusing :lol:

 

A copy of the Haynes diagrams for these systems is a must as well as the pinout lists because of Autodata's differences.

 

13-15 55, diagnostic connections <_<

 

27 is switched live via wire 2E - 2, 36 is wire 36 which earths the Injector relay, and 37 is supplied with 12v from the injector supply when 36 is switched by the ecu

 

10 and 28 are the O2 sensor signal/feed wires, 19 is the shield wire.

 

octane coding plug, I think a resistor to indicate a different octane is fitted (for lower octane I would imagine)

 

42, starter inhibitor relay, only found on Auto models!

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DrSarty

OK. I am stubborn, but I like a challenge.

 

Thanks Meirion for the info from Autodata and the above notes. What I really need now is the Haynes diagrams you mentioned to clarify a few points which concern me a tad.

 

Yes: I could just use a 205 Motronic loom as per PeteT's suggestion, but I'd have to find 2 good 'uns and put up with the fact that they'll be nearly 20 years old, and they're not that greatest anyway with seemingly endless miles of unnecessary green wire. Plus as said, I fancy the challenge of making a much shorter, cleaner, brand new and 100% understandable Sarty loom complete with supporting relay box.

 

So I've deciphered the Autodata sheets and simplfied them to show that only 20 or worst case 23 of the 55 pins are actually needed. That is shown in the attached table - I was bored and wasn't going to be baffled by bulls*it. The other 3 pins that may be needed are highlighted in yellow and discussed below.

 

The points queries I would raise are:

 

1) The inlet air temp (IAT) sensor doesn't show a sensor ground pin, so I would just join it with the other sensor grounds like ECU coolant temp sender, TPS and AFM on pin 30. (My Emerald sensor gnds are all shared as I understand they should all 'read' from the same baseline, and earths can fluctuate)

 

2) The Autodata listing shows 'battery' on pin 18, being 11-14v i.e. live, even with the ignition off!! My Emerald only has a switched live feed and I have no idea why an ECU would ever need a permanent feed.

 

3) Further to point (2), and as per Welshpug's last (Haynes?) details, there is an ignition switched live feed on pin 27. I would be tempted to try just this one and not pin 18 with a perm feed to power the ECU. This pin 27 would be powered by a 3A fuse protected relay, which is only live when the ignition is turned on. The relay would also be a diode relay to protect this sensitive ECU circuit. Again, this is how my Emerald is powered and protected.

 

4) Further still, this obvious perm live on pin 18 seems to show (according to Autodata) that pin 36 is also live when the ignition is off. I think this is bizarre! Linked to this is that WP says pins 36 and 37 are for controlling the fuel injector relay, which I will have taken care of (again just like MS recommends and on my Emerald) elsewhere in the relay box. So my gut reaction is that these are not needed either OR are used instead of my injector relay in the relay box. These wires may purely be just the triggers I can use for the injector relay, and perhaps I'll have to, even though I've taken care of it already. It still doesn't change the fact that non of the pins surely should be live with the ignition off.

 

So I would love some useful comments on the above, as the way I see it now, only 20 pins are needed. I'd potentially not use pin 18 (perm live) and use pin 27 as a switched live, and not bother to use pins 36 and 37 unless nothing happened. They only switch the fuel inj relay on anyway.

 

I may well have too much time on my hands to look at this so seriously ( :D ), but I want to understand the whole thing - I enjoy it - and not make my 2009, brand new, high power engines rely on 20 year old French wiring. The install will be neater too, and I will be able to say 'I did it'.

3RowMi16ECUPinOutList.pdf

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Anthony
  DrSarty said:
Yes: I could just use a 205 Motronic loom as per PeteT's suggestion, but I'd have to find 2 good 'uns and put up with the fact that they'll be nearly 20 years old, and they're not that greatest anyway with seemingly endless miles of unnecessary green wire. Plus as said, I fancy the challenge of making a much shorter, cleaner, brand new and 100% understandable Sarty loom complete with supporting relay box.

It's BX looms that have "endless miles of green wire" - believe me, I've got a lounge covered in green spaghetti at the moment whilst I'm converting one.

 

Whilst I can understand you wanting to scratch build the looms, I can't help but agree with Peter - keep it simple, and if there's something out there that already does the job, use it. It's rare in my experience for the looms themselves to give problems, so long as they've been well converted and properly checked before installing - most of the problem I've seen have been lousy conversions or broken/corroded connectors.

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DrSarty

So just clarify then please: a 205 Motronic loom, is 3-row and fits straight into the Mi 3-row ECU?

 

It has all of the relevant connections of the correct size to fit AFM, coil pack, ignition amplifier, TPS, ECU coolant temp sensor and CPS/CAS?

 

If so, then as Pete says, I'll only need to tap into pins 11 & 14 for the Knock sensor addition, and pin 4 for the Idle Control Valve ICV?

 

I'll still need to ensure it's getting perm live, switched live, ground and is connected to the inj and FP relays correctly though, unless you're saying those two relays are included in the loom. On the plus side the rev counter wire should be there ready for use.

 

That all sounds too good to be true... :D

Edited by DrSarty

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welshpug

Probably not that common over here, but I they must be a lot more common in Australia as many had A/C and cats.

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GLPoomobile

Just thought I'd add that for me, making my own loom was invaluable in terms of learning about what everything did. If I'd just repaired my own loom or bought another, I would still be none the wiser about it all. But the process of sitting down and going through the loom wire by wire, pin by pin, drawing a wiring diagram, looking at other wiring diagrams etc, it was a massive and invaluable experience. Now I feel like I know my loom inside and out, I could remove and it and refit it without labelling, and if something goes wrong I have a better understanding of the process flow to fault find. Again, I wouldn't feel like this if I'd not gone through the process because I wouldn't have this knowledge.

 

It's a personal thing I guess, but doing something hands on is completely different to reading about stuff when it's all a bunch of wire numbers and pinouts :D

 

So I'm very much an advocate of get in there, get your hands dirty, and make a loom if you want to, even if it's not the quickest/easiest/cheapest solution.

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