[car_upgrade] 205 Gets An Extra 2 Cylinders

[thirdtimelucky 3]

Hi all, Yes I got the v6 bug (its all George's fault) the car will be a joint effort between me and my mate Jim. The plan is to split the costs, as I don't really need any more cars but fancy doing the conversion and Jim wants a toy and to learn a bit more about car mechanic's.

The project will be done in two stages, first the conversion, should take about 6 weeks so we can have some fun while its still summer, second the bodywork and interior which will be done over the winter. When finished it should look like a very tidy standard 1.9 gti, until you open the bonnet

 

The 205 was an egay buy, mot failure (cv boot, exhaust and seat mounts) .It had had a very badly done top half respray, someone had masked up everything including the side repeaters and washer jets than sprayed the car the wrong red using the trim as a dam for the runs, His selling points were the new alternator and the new budget tyres , not much good on a v6 205. Got it back to my workshop and stuck it up on the lift and was pleasantly surprised, I had never seen the underneath of a 205 in as good nick, next to no rust and nothing bent, didn’t look like it has any previous accent damage, turned out to be a good buy, good solid base for the project.

The donor is a 1998 406 coupe with front end damage.

 

The before photos. Two tone, nice.

 

I might keep the seat covers

 

The Donor.

 

The project started Monday 6th July 09 with us striping the 205 engine bay.

 

 

Over the last week we cleaned and prepared the bay for spraying.

 

Sunday I gave the bay a lick of paint before going out for a few sherbets for Jims Bday.

 

Shiny

 

We had yesterday off work to recover from last night so out came the v6.

 

Even tried it in its new home

 

Job's to do this week, design and make the top engine mount, shorten drive shafts, modify subframe, modify loom and fit up the 205 bay, ok may run in to next week

[Goliath 94]

Good work

 

Engine bay looks lush, what top engine mount is it resting on there in that pic (if any)? It looks quite level! You lucky bastard having a garage with ramps like that!

[thirdtimelucky 3]

Good work

 

Engine bay looks lush, what top engine mount is it resting on there in that pic (if any)? It looks quite level! You lucky bastard having a garage with ramps like that!

 

I just took the bonded rubber mount out and used some spacers under the ally mount to get an idea of how it should sit. ill do some drawings tonight for a billet top mount.

 

[Goliath 94]

Ah cool, we can do a drawing of mine at the weekend if you like

 

You will need to take the engine out to put the servo back on btw! Its bloody impossible to get ack on with the engine there!

[thirdtimelucky 3]

Ah cool, we can do a drawing of mine at the weekend if you like

 

You will need to take the engine out to put the servo back on btw! Its bloody impossible to get ack on with the engine there!

Think Ive sussed the engine mount, done some drawings, just need to make some now

I only put the engine in to see how it fitted and to take some measurements so I could order up some parts and materials.

Its easy in and out when you have a car lift and a forklift

[pip470 61]

Nice one paul!! Top stuff. Looks like you have made some good progress already.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

As you can tell: the fun is in the torque!!!!

 

196lb/ft from a 4cyl. 197lb/ft from a V6. 'Ave some!

 

*Dons firesuit*

[welshpug 1,661]

The torque is immense, I've driven George's briefly before it was completed, we were all giggling at how epic the sound and torque was

[Bonzai 2]

i want i want i want

[Ludi 2 2 Cars]

i want i want i want

 

Me too.

 

It looks like a lot of fun.

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

As you can tell: the fun is in the torque!!!!

 

196lb/ft from a 4cyl. 197lb/ft from a V6. 'Ave some!

 

*Dons firesuit*

 

 

Yeah brilliant fun replacing bushes, lower arms, hubs, driveshafts and tyres every 5 minutes while the rest of us are out enjoying ourselfs putting the power down.

 

This looks like an excellent project and the work 2nd to none. Keep going fella! What management are you going to use?

 

Maxi

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

This looks like an excellent project and the work 2nd to none. Keep going fella! What management are you going to use?

 

I agree totally and am interested too. I'm assuming you're going to run the engine complete with original loom and ECU aren't you, or have you got something special planned?

 

And:

Yeah brilliant fun replacing bushes, lower arms, hubs, driveshafts and tyres every 5 minutes while the rest of us are out enjoying ourselfs putting the power down.

 

1 x old hub replaced in 5,000 miles+. Same driveshafts, tyres and everything else since April. My choice for the mods on the new car are simply to remove the possibility of the above and deliver confidence by everything being new and uprated.

 

You had to expect me to reply Adam . Wish I was coming to the curry so we could discuss over naans again like last time. And have no fear: I now have 2 x Mi engines to play with, which for fun I'm going to build identically bar one having an iron (2.0) block and the other a lovely light alloy XU9. Gonna do it for fair comparison and a giggle.

 

I too am doing this for the love of wringing an XU9's neck. We do have something in common. You just need some TSWs to make your life complete.

 

You were talking Paul about you plans for and skills with driveshafts on ET09. Will be very interested to see what you'll do and how you'll do it if you'll share?

 

Also what hub carriers are people running with a V6?

 

Lovely workplace BTW Paul. Is Wildejon helping? Anyone else?

Edited July 15, 2009 by DrSarty

[welshpug 1,661]

George is running 309 hubs+hub carriers, and 1.6 gti vented bendix calipers

 

IIRC Jeram had 306 ones,

 

I think 306 carriers may have a little more CV joint clearance as most were made to run ABS and hence a larger CV joint though the 406 CV may be even bigger, not had chance to check side by side.

 

Hilgie has 205 1.9 gti in his spec list

 

Drive flange itself is the same between most later assemblies and the larger engined earlier cars, and interestingly the later 405 is the same as the 406 at the hub carrier+bearing+drive flange+balljoint.

 

sorry, went a bit o/t there!

 

I don't see why the drivetrain would fall apart all the time, seeing as most is shared with vehicles that have even greater torque than the V6.

 

ok its diesel, but the 3.0 V6 coming soon in the 407, will have 450 lbft

Edited July 15, 2009 by welshpug

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

I agree totally and am interested too. I'm assuming you're going to run the engine complete with original loom and ECU aren't you, or have you got something special planned?

 

 

Are they not multiplexed like late xsaras, etc?? I would put aftermarkett management on it anyway, a conversion to this std deserves it.

 

As for torque rich, you know my thoughts! Isnt it about time you got yourself out of that hell hole and just came back here. Surely a man with your caliber could get a half sensible job in the U.K? Old Ronald is hiring.........

 

I will be watching this project closely, I think the V6 is going to be the next big thing and I have a feeling this one is going to set the trend and techniques.

 

Maxi

[marksorrento205 80]

I will be watching this project closely, I think the V6 is going to be the next big thing and I have a feeling this one is going to set the trend and techniques.

 

Maxi

 

+1

[kate205gti 4]

+2

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Surely a man with your caliber could get a half sensible job in the U.K? Old Ronald is hiring.........

 

Why? You leaving?

 

 

..and back on topic.

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

Why? You leaving?

 

 

..and back on topic.

 

 

Yeah they fired me Rich, they heard you were the expect at TOSSING................the burgers.

 

Maxi

[taylorspug 7]

I still dont know why everyone has this massive problem with hubs. Im still running the same pair i was when i bought my car 6-odd years years ago, just have new bearings in them now, and even those werent strictly needed. The confidence comes from good well maintained parts more than constant uprating.

 

Id also run the car on aftermarket management, i think theres bags of hidden power to be found over the standard stuff, it is a 'touring' style engine/car afterall.

[thirdtimelucky 3]

Get a room you two

Pleased you are all liking the project, all suggestions welcome. Not much progress with the car over the last couple of days mainly designing the bespoke parts. Made some adjustments to the engine mount design as Ive decided to make it on a cnc instead of a manual machine to keep the cost down due to the unexpected interest in them. Should get some parts and materials over the next couple of days so should make good progress on the weekend.

Don’t think there’s a problem with the hubs being strong enough, ill be using 306 ones just cos ive got some lying around, welshpug answered most of the driveshaft questions, Ill be running shortened v6 shafts which should deal with the power, they cope in the 406 and the 205 is far lighter. Rich they might be a good upgrade to a BE1/3 gearboxed car if I can work out how to get the larger v6 splines to fit the BE box, maybe mate the v6 shaft to the BE shaft if the week point is the outer cv.

Im in the early stages of developing a sandwich plate to use the BE box on the v6 which would give us more ratio options, better lsd options, less bespoke parts and some weight saving but it will be a few months before I can put the time in to it.

Ill be running the v6 ecu mainly for budget reasons it is the earlier engine so not using the multiplexed wiring. I will upgrade to after market management as funds become available.

[welshpug 1,661]

There is an LSD available, and I'd rather the extra weight of the ML5 box than trying to use a BE gearbox on there myself, the gear ratios are pretty close to being perfect, making them lower would be silly (they'll pull off in 3rd!!), and making them taller would be un-necessary as they'll pull 155mph+ on the stock non-VVT rev limit (which is about 500 rpm lower than the later VVT engine IIRC)

 

They're a bit like a turbo engine in some respect, just without the turbo lag!

 

You'd need no less bespoke parts to use the BE gearbox, bellhousing adapter, custom flywheel, a clutch to cope whilst being easy to use daily would be my main concern, also unsure how far along the shaft the ML5 bearing is, it could well be different to the BE bearing (quite likely!) which would add more hassle.

 

The only parts needed for the ML5 are the shafts, modified subframe (which needs a certain amount of modifying anyway for the V6) and clutch mechanism, use stock clutch + flywheel, stock shift cables.

 

Just my opinions though!

 

keep us updated, what with a few people on here that have already done this conversion there's a fair amount of knowledge to help you along

 

have you started on the wiring yet? I have a few ideas and info on that

[thirdtimelucky 3]

Good point welshpug, Just thought the weight saving would make the v6 more usable on the track. the main reason for doing it is the challenge, my background is engineering design and manufacturing, and I get board easily, thats where my 4wd came from . Also I want to see if I can get the V6 to run a 4wd 205

[GLPoomobile 958]

Paul

 

Unless I'm very much mistaken, you haven't even given us any sort of project topic for your 4wd 205 yet. Come on, get your priorities right!

[thirdtimelucky 3]

Paul

 

Unless I'm very much mistaken, you haven't even given us any sort of project topic for your 4wd 205 yet. Come on, get your priorities right!

The 4wd is coming off the road at the end of the summer for some improvements, ill start a project thread then as I didnt take many photos first time around.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Ill be running the v6 ecu mainly for budget reasons it is the earlier engine so not using the multiplexed wiring. I will upgrade to after market management as funds become available.

 

I can understand the budget thing, because if you went say Emerald now, you'd need around £700 for the ECU plus £300 for mapping, so an additional £1,000 to find. Depending on where you are (i.e. what knowledgable mapping access you have) then I'm sure DTA or OMEX would be available at a similar cost. I only refer to Emerald as I have one and know the costs and we pretty much all agree that Dave Walker's one highly respected individual. Maxi & Dan know someone very good and if you can get his time, Sandy Brown with a DTA would probably unleash more from the lump giving you quick payback on your grand.

 

But I would say it might be worth trying to find that £1,000 and getting it all in now, i.e. fresh loom, nice and simple and you'd not have to faff about later. PLUS you'd get what Dan's referring to, i.e. a better, less compromised engine from day 1 and spend more time enjoying it. That's what finding that extra grand would deliver - more fun.

 

Great stuff Paul. I've gotta dash: I'm on fries tonight.