A Nice Little Tale Of Woe For All Those Who Are Struggling

[kyepan 291]

so another evening of fun... instead of one problem it looks like there are two.

 

I thought i had fixed the hot start issue, I have not. My intention was to go get some physio in windsor and then drive to dads to diagnose the starter issue, however i only got to windsor, whereupon i was caught in some kind of catch 22 situation.

 

i could usually get it to start, but only when turned over for a bit until it chugs, then back on the key and turn over again to start, this works well from cold, it needs longer to turn over when hot... but it fires first time.

 

now it decided that it was only going to turn over once, long enough to get it to chug, turning the key for a second time resulted in the hot start issue... so i have to turn the key twice to start but turning the key twice gives me the hot start issue..... every time.

 

I'm also sure it's the solonoid wire because i could hear the solonoid clicking on the starter... new wire methinks.

 

some guys tried to bump me, but that wasn't hapenning so ovbiously something else was not right.

 

so i was stuck.

 

Dad however was at home looking over the wiring diagrams in preparation for my arrival and pointed me to the solonid for the fuel pump, some one else who shall remain nameless provided the pins to bridge to hard wire the fuel pump, with that and a further ten minutes to allow it time to cool, we were in business...

 

so it would seem there is something wrong with that solonoid... and a the wiring issue.

 

once again it was like a scolded cat...

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Is the solenoid the same thing as the fuel relay?

 

I've got one for a 205 gti if you need it.

 

Bit of annoyance, it was running well the other day

[kyepan 291]

And just for giggles I gave it a quick start this morning, it was stone cold sober and i changed the relay for a spare one in the glove box.

 

 

Still it would only chug, like it's getting a dribble of fuel, and not start first time. So either both relays are broken, or it's not the relay, but the wiring.

 

Am i correct in assuming that the fuel pump relay is connected to what once was the brown multi plug, but am assuming that the person who converted it. (who i believe is either maxi or miles) would have removed this as part of the conversion.

 

feel like this could also be an ecu issue... as something is not telling the pump to go.

 

 

Harking back to the original post, it took forever for the fuel pressure to rise, in fact it didn't for the first 5 odd seconds of cranking, like the ecu was not getting a signal from the crank angle sensor.

 

perhaps checking for spark in this situation might be worth a try.

[kyepan 291]

Is the solenoid the same thing as the fuel relay?

 

I've got one for a 205 gti if you need it.

 

Bit of annoyance, it was running well the other day

cheers by the way, would like to take you for another spin, ps sorry for not replying about the sub frame bolts, if you are stuck try apex fastenings in slough.

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

We got some in the end mate.

 

I'll be able to take you out for a drive some point soon.

 

The heads on and torque'd up and the timing done.

The rest of it's easy

[kyepan 291]

another quick update... Anthony's relays appear to have fixed the starting issue, that and me redoing the electrical tape so it does not touch more than one terminal of the relay.. dad thinks this may also help the hot start issue.

 

both relays were changed, the fuel pump relay, and the other one.

 

the car seems to be smelling of fuel slightly, going to check the fuel tank connections before the run home, as they were off when the fuel pump was changed.

 

all good so far though, and if the hot start issue raises it's head again.. i'll b ready with my multimeter.

 

MOT here we come...

 

Paul - you about tonight, as i should really take you for a spin in the newly revived pug.

[GLPoomobile 958]

So are you saying that the problem may have been with the fuel injection and fuel pump relays, or the green and brown relays as they seem to be more commonly known?

 

Sounds similar to the issue I had with mine. But in my case it would start and run for a while, then eventually stutter and cut out, and then wouldn't re-start as it was not injecting. After a while it would be OK again. I did wonder if it was a problem with a relay but never got to the bottom of the problem, and it's been OK recently, although I've not had it running for long periods. When I get back from holiday in a few weeks I'm going to take it out late at night and just drive around our area for an hour or so and see if behaves.

 

Will carry spare relays though

[kyepan 291]

i spoke too soon, this evening after work i returned to the car expecting goodness, i got a couple of turns of the starter, chug chug and nothing, then the starter would not turn... as the solonoid clicked, then nothing... bridged the fuel pump relay, waited for the prescribed 5 mins and bang it started.

 

However crucially, i noticed that the connectors on the relay were loose... and made a mental note to make the contact more positive.

 

went to dads and pored over some circuit diagrams, as i have both 405 and 205 haynes... so please correct me if i am wrong here as my wiring knowledge is fairly poor.

 

The 205 diagram shows what appears to be a big 7 point relay... at the end of a bridged connection coming from the ignition switch, which also goes to the starter, i'm guessing this is the dreaded multi plug.... all coming through the fuse board.

 

my car has two relays, like the 405 diagram, neither of these has anything to do with the starter loom, as the fuel pump relay is triggered by a wire from the ecu, and the injector relay is in turn triggered by the fuel pump relay, plus a couple of fuses. so I crimped these relay connections back down and reconnected them... the car then turned over and fired immediatly. Problem 1 solved, s*it connections on the relays.

 

problem 2... a very reluctant starter that appears more reluctant the more you try it... two attempts and it's not interested, 4 and the solonoid won't even fire.

 

The 405 diagram has no such complications relating to the starter solonoid wire, the starter wire 46 goes pretty much directly from the ignition switch to the starter, however i'm guessing mine still goes through the fuse board.

 

things to test (dad is going to help)

 

1) ignition switch resitance when at cranking position

2) voltage going into the fuse board

3) voltage at the top of wire 46

4) voltage at the starter solonoid..

 

I'm guessing a soldered replacement from the fuseboard to solenoid will probably sort this out... but want to make sure it's not something further up.

[kyepan 291]

So are you saying that the problem may have been with the fuel injection and fuel pump relays, or the green and brown relays as they seem to be more commonly known?

 

Sounds similar to the issue I had with mine. But in my case it would start and run for a while, then eventually stutter and cut out, and then wouldn't re-start as it was not injecting. After a while it would be OK again. I did wonder if it was a problem with a relay but never got to the bottom of the problem, and it's been OK recently, although I've not had it running for long periods. When I get back from holiday in a few weeks I'm going to take it out late at night and just drive around our area for an hour or so and see if behaves.

 

Will carry spare relays though

I think it has always been the connections to the relays rather than the relays themselves... we originally removed the connector blocks as they were giving intermittent connections and causing the car to cut out over bumps, and replaced them with fairly well insulated spade connectors, one onto each terminal. these have over time worked loose, because they are not properly secured, although some foam inside the box would help that. If i were you i would look at the connector blocks themselves, and possibly replace them.. if you still have issues.

 

It might be worth checking you're getting a good constant connection, simply start the car and wiggle/ tug on the wire that goes into the back of each terminal.. if it cuts out you've got a winner.

 

J

[GLPoomobile 958]

My connector blocks are the originals, but all the terminals were replaced along with the wiring when I made the loom. I have good tight connections, and wiggling makes no difference. I'm inclined to think it's a dodgy relay as I got them mixed up during the loom work. I had a spare knackered loom that I used to compare to my original one when I was drawing the wiring diagram, and during the shenanigans I got all the relays mixed up. So it's possible I've fitted one of the relays from the donor loom, which are an unknown quantity, whereas my original relays were fine. Only way to tell is to get out and drive it till it happens and then swap the over.

 

Regarding your starter problems, have you tried starting it by bridging the solenoid directly to the battery +VE? When I did my sensor loom and replaced the brown plug with a superseal plug, I fitted a piggy back terminal to the starter solenoid with a separate wire coming off it, long enough to reach the battery. The end is bare but insulated. So if I ever have problems like yours, I can simply locate my back up wire, unwrap the end and touch it to the battery.

Edited August 24, 2009 by GLPoomobile

[kyepan 291]

My connector blocks are the originals, but all the terminals were replaced along with the wiring when I made the loom. I have good tight connections, and wiggling makes no difference. I'm inclined to think it's a dodgy relay as I got them mixed up during the loom work. I had a spare knackered loom that I used to compare to my original one when I was drawing the wiring diagram, and during the shenanigans I got all the relays mixed up. So it's possible I've fitted one of the relays from the donor loom, which are an unknown quantity, whereas my original relays were fine. Only way to tell is to get out and drive it till it happens and then swap the over.

 

Regarding your starter problems, have you tried starting it by bridging the solenoid directly to the battery +VE? When I did my sensor loom and replaced the brown plug with a superseal plug, I fitted a piggy back terminal to the starter solenoid with a separate wire coming off it, long enough to reach the battery. The end is bare but insulated. So if I ever have problems like yours, I can simply locate my back up wire, unwrap the end and touch it to the battery.

 

Ok so that rules out connections, now that you mention it i did re-read your how to post on the junior power timer connections and the tools.. it should be a sticky really if it's not.

 

as you know on the relay front, the MI loom has two standard relays, you can find these (according to anthony) in any late model XU Peugeot and are interchangable, they all have the same diagram on the side and voltage rating, if you're in any doubt, replace both as a matter of course, and then test. Scrap yard is your friend, they should not set you back more than a fiver each.

 

On the starter issue, if (more likely when) i run a new solonoid wire, i'll definitly run a separate wire to up near the battery as that sounds like a good backup, thanks for the tip.

 

 

does anyone know how much a new ignition barrel is, as dad says they used to fail regularly on mini's... and do they fail regularly on pugs?

J

Edited August 25, 2009 by kyepan

[Anthony 1,003]

On the relay front, the MI loom has two standard relays, you can find these (according to anthony) in any late model XU Peugeot, they all have the same diagram on the side and voltage rating, I would replace both as a matter of course if you're not sure, and then test. Scrap yard is your friend, they should not set you back more than a fiver each.

They're just standard green four pin relays - they can be found in just about any European car produced in the last 20 years I'd guess, but yes, certainly there's plenty of them in just about any 90's Peugeot/Citroen in the scrappy. They're cheap as chips to buy new as well - they're not even specific to automotive applications.

[GLPoomobile 958]

As Anthony says, there's nowt special about the relays. We had a discussion in a seperate topic recently. I thought there must be something special to them since they get distinguished as 'the green one' and 'the brown one'. Yeah, they do different jobs, but they are just a basic standard relay. Anyhoo, you can get them from VWP for a few quid a piece, and obviously most electrical places and probably motor factors would supply them too. Pug want about £15 each for them I think someone said!

[kyepan 291]

hi there,

 

 

Firstly, i've been away hence no progress, but have been reading since getting back from holiday yesterday morning and believe i have to also find the current drain causing the battery to go flat in 2 weeks (new battery), it's currently connected to a new and rather fancy battery charger desuficating.

 

have taken apart the shunt box and on the whole the business end of the connectors are in vgc, however i need to take apart one connector as wire 1 (yellow) has a puncture wound, as we know this and 1a go to the fuse board and on to the ignition switch. it was swollen with copper oxide and many of the internal wires were broken, after a quick clean out it's ovbious that it will need re terminating.

 

continuing on i'll be looking at the following.

 

1)continuity and resitance across the ignition switch

2) starter voltage when cranking

4) pre fuse board voltage

5)post fuse board volage

6) pre alarm voltage

7) post alarm voltage

 

and i'm quite prepared to either call my alarm guy out, as he's done 3 for me and if it turns out to be his work i'm fairly sure he'll make good.

 

8) terminating end of the solonoid wire voltage (when cranking)

 

 

reason for doing it when cranking is (from what i have read) as you up the amps if there is an issue with the connection the voltage will drop.

 

thinking in water terms i understand that

volts = pressure

current = actual volumetric rate of flow

 

so you could have a very small hole with high pressure , but when you widen the hole to allow more flow it can't maintain the pressure and so the voltage drops...

 

and then have the big soldering iron, flux, heat shrink stuff and some heavy duty wire to run a bypass to the solonoid + ring connectors of the correct size.

 

So if someone can explain how to remove the terminal from the shunt box connector i would be very grateful.

 

some pics, clickable thumbs... shunt box main red wires to starter and battery in good nic

 

 

puncture wound of wire 1, 1a has a small wound also

 

 

any advice appreciated.

 

 

cheers

 

J

[welshpug 1,657]

all sounds pretty logical, can't add any more

 

as for removing the terminal from the plug it depends on the type of plug used, often its just brute force and possibly a small flat bladed screwdriver will persuade it out, some have a section you can unclip and open which will allow easier access to pull the terminal out.

Edited September 10, 2009 by welshpug

[kyepan 291]

all sounds pretty logical, can't add any more

 

as for removing the terminal from the plug it depends on the type of plug used, often its just brute force and possibly a small flat bladed screwdriver will persuade it out, some have a section you can unclip and open which will allow easier access to pull the terminal out.

it's not the unclipable openalbe type unfortunately, it appears to have some kind of locking clip that you have to depress from behind, made a tool just now from an old feeler gauge , but it still won't budge...

 

guess BFI is the way forwards for now.

 

J

[kyepan 291]

ok - so the terminal came out eventually, opening it up went ok until opening the second part of the inner crimp, then it snapped in two.

 

It's an 10-11mm spade terminal, halfords and maplin don't do them, i'm assuming vehicle wiring products do, but the bloke on the phone told me to look at their website, which is not the easiest to use if you don't know the name or group of products you're looking for.

 

anyone know what it's called, where i might find one without ordering from VWP... think it might be these.

 

Large cable connectors.

 

Spare terminals

 

3-7675 Male 2.5-4mm2 £0.58 £4.37

3-7660 Female 4-6mm2 £0.80 £5.99

3-7685 Male 6-8mm2 £0.66 £4.93

3-7670 Female 6-10mm2 £0.68 £5.09

3-7690 Male 10-16mm2 £0.66 £4.99

3-7671 Female 10-16mm2 £2.09 £15.70

 

 

the od of the wire is maybe 4-6 mm, plus another of 2-4mm, it doesn't state if there is a variation of the spade size though

J

[kyepan 291]

More progress, went to peugeot, and the usual chap behind the parts desk disappeared out back with the broken connector, reappearing several minutes later with a chunk of loom containing two pristine connectors...

 

he then disappeared again and had them removed from the connector very intact.

 

So I've got 3 new very hard to find connecters connected to wire, and some shrink wrap/ heavy duty connectors, for just being nice over the past couple of years to the chap behind the parts desk.

 

will be continuing tomorrow... and actually getting to some testing, the battery is now on a slow charge cycle after the deep charge recovery thingy finished.

 

this topic is so utterly boring, but fixing this gremlin will make the car usable... something it has not been for the past 6 months..

 

roll on usability.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Well done Justin.

 

All good things to those who.....persist, work hard and make a pain in the arse of themselves.

 

Something gives sooner or later, and personally I feel that now you've attacked that shunt box (eventually), the results will come.

 

As I said earlier: ultimately it's the simplest circuit in the book. Which means once you've found the cause, the fix will be simple and swift, and the car will be running, starting and stopping again just as it should.

 

Erradicate (sp?) all gremlins. They are there and they plot against us.

 

The relief you feel when it's fixed will make all this hardship worthwhile.

[kyepan 291]

a quick update

 

Rewired the shunt box using the new connectors and reconnected..

 

tested the following

 

voltage to ignition switch 12.5

voltage after ignition switch when cranking 12.5

voltage after alarm 11.5

voltage going out of alarm 11.5

 

voltage at solonoid was hard to tell because as you cranked it climbed, then the engine fired... as per usual.

 

 

so i let it warm up and run for ten mins, and tested again to be sure and gave it a few more starts, just aggravating it with short turns of the key.

 

and hey presto it clicked the solonoid.. so measured the voltage again at the solonoid and it was 8.5v.

 

I immediately assumed it was the solonoid wire...

 

so back to the fuse board 9v on no 46a wire

back to the ignition 9v

back to before the ignition (i think, as i don't know how to disconnect the cables out of the ignition) and it's 12.5

 

so it would appear it's the ignition switch.

 

how would one bypass this and fit a starter button?

 

as the numbered wires going too and from the ignition switch make no sense, the d++ etc are not to be found, instead i have 18, 20 i think and a couple of others.

 

cheers

 

J

[Toddy 7]

a quick update

 

Rewired the shunt box using the new connectors and reconnected..

 

tested the following

 

voltage to ignition switch 12.5

voltage after ignition switch when cranking 12.5

voltage after alarm 11.5

voltage going out of alarm 11.5

 

voltage at solonoid was hard to tell because as you cranked it climbed, then the engine fired... as per usual.

 

 

so i let it warm up and run for ten mins, and tested again to be sure and gave it a few more starts, just aggravating it with short turns of the key.

 

and hey presto it clicked the solonoid.. so measured the voltage again at the solonoid and it was 8.5v.

 

I immediately assumed it was the solonoid wire...

 

so back to the fuse board 9v on no 46a wire

back to the ignition 9v

back to before the ignition (i think, as i don't know how to disconnect the cables out of the ignition) and it's 12.5

 

so it would appear it's the ignition switch.

 

how would one bypass this and fit a starter button?

 

as the numbered wires going too and from the ignition switch make no sense, the d++ etc are not to be found, instead i have 18, 20 i think and a couple of others.

 

cheers

 

J

 

I found exactly the same problem 12.8v to ignition switch but its output was variable sometimes 12v but mostly 10v so that not enough power to trip the solenoid although you can hear it click. I fitted a starter button (from maplins), 12v feed from the fuse box and piggy backed onto the starter wire. Still would like to resolve the issue so that it works as it came out of the factory!

[welshpug 1,657]

I'd be inclined to have a go at taking the switch apart, but I like taking stuff apart

[kyepan 291]

The ignition switch was a red herring too. i wired in the switch dad bought, because he convinced me that it was the ignition, and it's still doing it,

However upon reading the voltage before the starter switch when you hit the starter button, it drops to 10.5 v and the solonoid clicks... so it's even further up than the ignition switch......

 

Under the drivers side dash I have two multiblock connectors for the ignition switch, one has two terminals, one has four.

 

the brown one, with two connectors, has 1c (yellow) and 1 (red), both are permanent live, giving 12.5v

they go into white wires that go up to the ignition switch.

1c and 1 voltages slowly drop with cranking

 

on the 205 diagram 1 and 1a come from the battery through the fuse board, but not 1c

 

the white connector with four wires from the ignition switch, which are connected to, 32a (red), 46 (white), 33r (light turquoise) 33 (light blue)

they all go to the fuseboard and are in the same connector. 32a, has been soldered and insulated to another red wire, just before the connector block.

 

32a has 12.5v when the alarm is disarmed, and 10.5v when trying to crank

46 has voltage when cranking only...

 

on the 205 haynes diagram, everything that goes too and from the fuseboard / ignition switch is P+, and from it is ac, d, aa. which i don't see anywhere. further more on the diagram 32a only starts after the fuseboard on it's way to the multiplug...... not the ignition...

 

On the 405 haynes diagram, 32 goes to the fuseboard from the "ignition on" terminal, 33 goes to the instrument cluster (via fuse board), 33r does not exist on either diagram. so am i correct in thinking that they have used some part of 405 loom for this section up to the fuseboard... and somone has hacked at this wire for a prior alarm install... and not the conversion. so whilst this is 405 cabling, it's mimicking 205 ignition loom.

 

 

Still confused about the fact that 32 seems to be my 12v feed but everything in the diagrams say it's in fact going to somewhere else and not coming from the battery... 1 and 1a should be my feeds... but where do they come from .. before the fuse board i mean.

 

And to add insult to injury, it seems to start if you put it in gear and rock back and forth, take out of gear and try it.. like the solonoid is sticking out or something......

 

am i being a clutz.. fed up now.. going for a pint..

 

oh and the repair to the block has blown again... so it's leaking water .. i could have been flying gliders today and yesterday, not dicking about with the pug.

 

i guess on the other hand i am learning about car electrics.... joy

Edited September 11, 2009 by kyepan

[kyepan 291]

just a quick reply to this, going to take the starter off tomorrow, as i can hear the solonoid fire every time now...and return so at least thats working, is there any chance it's not meshing with the flywheel? and this is why it's not actually turning the starter.

 

however if you hold the starter button / ignition key start pos in... the voltage drops, so it is drawing current...

 

also i'm going to do that solonoid wire tomorrow too, just in case. .

 

j

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Alrite J,

 

Does it sound like the starter spinning round? (Whirring noise?)

Or it could be it's pushing the cog out but it's not turning it.

 

I had this on the big chunky starter I used to have on the 1.9 8v, a long extension bar and lump hammer sorted it for a few weeks

 

I have another starter somewhere if you want to try that...

 

If this was me in this situation I would make it so the starter is on a switch.

Edited September 11, 2009 by paul_xiii