Lots Of Body Roll

[lemmingzappa 75 1 Cars]

On my 1.6 GTi I have a 20mm wider front and rear track than usual, but i'm running a standard ride height. I seem to be getting a fair amount of body roll when i'm cornering.

I have read through Adi's posts about suspension and handling etc.. but i'm still rather confused about the whole thing.

 

Do I need to lower both the front and the rear of the car to reduce the body roll, or do I just need stiffer springs, or a combination of both ?

 

I don't want to lower the car too much due to scrubbing and bottoming out etc...and I dont want to ruin the handling either.

 

The reason for me wanting to reduce the roll is because the car feels pretty unstable and I can't tell if it's going to let go or not !

[Baz 421]

Lowering will just lower the CoG, without stiffer springs, anti roll bars and better damping, it will still have body-roll.

[lemmingzappa 75 1 Cars]

So will an anti roll bar make much of a difference on it's own, or does it require a combination of all these things before it's even noticable ?

[Baz 421]

Anti-roll bars make a difference alone yes.

 

Although if yopu think your problem is excessive i'd ask why, what springs/dampers etc are on it now?

[TurboSam 5]

The reason for me wanting to reduce the roll is because the car feels pretty unstable and I can't tell if it's going to let go or not !

 

Even with a bit of body roll, it shouldn't feel like that - might be worth checking ball joints, bushes etc.

[lemmingzappa 75 1 Cars]

As far as I know everything suspension wise is standard. Maybe i'm approaching roundabouts too quickly ^_^

Edited July 2, 2009 by lemmingzappa

[shalmaneser 26]

As far as I know everything suspension wise is standard. Maybe i'm approaching roundabouts too quickly ^_^

 

Then how have you got 20mm wider track? spacers? wierd wheels?

 

TBH if it's all standard you might just have knackered dampers/bushes etc.

[lemmingzappa 75 1 Cars]

Then how have you got 20mm wider track? spacers? wierd wheels?

 

TBH if it's all standard you might just have knackered dampers/bushes etc.

 

20mm Hubcentric spacers. Do you have any pics of the bushes I need to check just so I know where I need to look ?

 

Thanks

[Baz 421]

Ahh, i missed that, with the spacer's you've changed the centre point of the wheels. This will change the handling characteristics and may be the culprit for strange handling!

[johnnyboy666 195 1 Cars]

surely with spacers on, the leverage point is further out making the rate of spring/damping seem less.

 

 

or that might be a load of balls

 

but sounds right to me

[Tom Fenton 1,541]

Its not so much the leverage, it is the scrub radius that will be funny with spacers on, and yes this will make the handling nasty.

[lemmingzappa 75 1 Cars]

Its not so much the leverage, it is the scrub radius that will be funny with spacers on, and yes this will make the handling nasty.

 

I thought that the handling would be fine as all wheels are spaced evenly. So technically they are in the same positions as they should be just 20mm further out.

 

Surely this can't be any different from running 309 rear beams etc ?

[Baz 421]

It's the front that's more important. The spacers certainly change the scrub radius, so will be more succeptable to bump-steer etc, because the geo's up the spout, will also put more strain on the wheel bearings, and other parts, bushes etc.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Baz

[lemmingzappa 75 1 Cars]

So my next step is to look into anti roll bars and stiffer springs, I take it the standard shocks are fine ?

[jimistdt 1]

I think general consensus is to remove the spacers, but thats upto you. It will be worth doing alot of research of what set-up people are running on their cars - as you've found suspension is an intricate thing, you can't just change stuff hope it will improve things - well you can but it'll be an expensive route to take.

[shalmaneser 26]

So my next step is to look into anti roll bars and stiffer springs, I take it the standard shocks are fine ?

 

Your next step is to remove the spacers!

 

And it's pretty unwise to assume the standard shocks are 'fine' - they may well be totally knackered, they're probably about 20 years old by now!

 

If i were you I'd look at...

 

A) remove spacers; drive, how does it feel?

check condition of bushes; if knackered, replace.

C) look at new dampers and springs. Standard pug dampers seem to be the best for the rear, bilstein for the front, available from GSF. Eibach springs. Or just use standard Pug stuff, don't know how much it costs from Pug though - the rear dampers aren't too dear though. You'd be wise to fit new top mounts and bearings at this point too.

 

it's also usefully in order of cheapness (although not easyness...fitting bushes is a pain as I've just found out!!!)

 

TBH on any car as old as our pugs, a full suspension refresh is probably the best answer in 95% of cases!

[lemmingzappa 75 1 Cars]

Well tbh I took it for another drive and it didn't seem as bad, maybe it was a few particular corners which made me notice it.

I won't be able to afford new parts until after september anyway as i'm going to the Nurburgring (i guess this is the best place to test my current setup !).

 

I wont be removing the spacers though as I think the cars stance is twice as nice to look at, and they cost a fair bit

I'd rather compensate the issue by upgrading other parts which probably will need doing at some point anyway.

 

Thanks for your advice, if you have any specific parts to recommend then i'm open to suggestions !

[shalmaneser 26]

compromising the performance for the looks, especially when you're going to the Nburg seems a bit silly to me, but hey, it's your car.

 

If you put some 1.9 alloys on it I found the tyre was a lot closer to poking out of the arches, to the point that my car is borderline illegal (ie. the tread is barely under the arches). It would be a much better bet doing that than cocking up the handling by wacking spacers on the car. I also prefer the way the car handles with lower profile rims on, I can feel the sidewalls deforming a lot less while cornering compared to the balloon tyres on the 14 inch rims.

 

Stance looks OK too, if you ask me...

 

 

please bin the spacers - you could make a good few quid on Ebay for 'em.

[lemmingzappa 75 1 Cars]

I've already got the 1.9 speedlines on it, but there was too much arch, and not enough wheel in my opinion

[ifcho 0]

OK. Many people here seem to hate spacers, but how do you put wider rims without spacers?

Also, is the scrub radius modified, when using 8mm spacers on ET25 rim (so they sit in the standard position (ET18)

[Tom Fenton 1,541]

I thought that the handling would be fine as all wheels are spaced evenly. So technically they are in the same positions as they should be just 20mm further out.

 

Surely this can't be any different from running 309 rear beams etc ?

 

Sorry but it just doesn't work like that. Google scrub radius and you'll see why moving all the wheels out 20mm buggers up the handling. At the rear is does not matter, due to the trailing arm setup, and the rear does not steer. But at the front you have moved the centre of the contact patch of the tyre 20mm out from the line intersecting the top pivot (strut top) and bottom balljoint, and this is the cause of your sh1t handling. Technically they are not in the same positions at all, they may be regarding the wheelbase, but the interaction with the front suspension is all to cock now.

 

Stick with your spacers if you wish, but your car will handle like a dog for as long as they are on there.

 

I thought that the handling would be fine as all wheels are spaced evenly. So technically they are in the same positions as they should be just 20mm further out.

 

Surely this can't be any different from running 309 rear beams etc ?

 

Sorry but it just doesn't work like that. Google scrub radius and you'll see why moving all the wheels out 20mm buggers up the handling. At the rear is does not matter, due to the trailing arm setup, and the rear does not steer. But at the front you have moved the centre of the contact patch of the tyre 20mm out from the line intersecting the top pivot (strut top) and bottom balljoint, and this is the cause of your sh1t handling. Technically they are not in the same positions at all, they may be regarding the wheelbase, but the interaction with the front suspension is all to cock now.

 

Stick with your spacers if you wish, but your car will handle like a dog for as long as they are on there.

[GLPoomobile 958]

I've already got the 1.9 speedlines on it, but there was too much arch, and not enough wheel in my opinion

 

You've got 1.9 Speedlines, AND 20mm spacers, on a 1.6 set up? Is that correct, or have you swapped to 1.9 hubs at some point?

 

1.9 Speedlines on 1.6 hubs stick out further than on a 1.9 set up, because the 1.6 hubs have more offset. In my experience the wheels were left at the limits of the arch edge, and looked stupid. Having the additional spacers is sure to make it look eve more stupid, and could possibly even be illegal if the tyre is protruding beyond the arch edge.

 

My advice - stop being a slave to image (which I'd argue probably looks worse than STD anyway), and sell the bloody spacers!

[lemmingzappa 75 1 Cars]

You've got 1.9 Speedlines, AND 20mm spacers, on a 1.6 set up? Is that correct, or have you swapped to 1.9 hubs at some point?

 

1.9 Speedlines on 1.6 hubs stick out further than on a 1.9 set up, because the 1.6 hubs have more offset. In my experience the wheels were left at the limits of the arch edge, and looked stupid. Having the additional spacers is sure to make it look eve more stupid, and could possibly even be illegal if the tyre is protruding beyond the arch edge.

 

My advice - stop being a slave to image (which I'd argue probably looks worse than STD anyway), and sell the bloody spacers!

 

The rears dont go any further than the arches, without the spacers they still sat pretty far in (which I hate). And yes i'm running 1.6 hubs.

You make it sound like i'm some chavvy nob who prefers silly looks to performance, but I honestly can't stand it when the wheels sit too far in. It just looks like i've got a car with a huge body kit on it otherwise !

 

I understand the spacers will be affecting my handling, and yes i'm open to suggestions. I'd rather save up some cash and uprate some other parts like bushes and strut braces etc...to help improve the handling with the spacers still on it.

 

Dont attack me

[j_turnell 136 3 Cars]

Not being funny but you put a post up asking for suspension advice, everyone has said to remove the spacers, maybe you should give it ago, 1.6 hubs with 1.9 wheels looks to wide imo let alone with 20mm spacers, its clearly affecting your handling negatively so why try cover it up with other mods, a strutbrace and bushes certainly wouldnt be anywhere near the top of my list for improvements.

[welshpug 1,655]

It just looks like i've got a car with a huge body kit on it otherwise !

 

 

not at all, just looks like a standard 205!!