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eob

Best Way To 180bhp Mi16?

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eob

I hope it doesn't come across as bad mouthing my native country :D I know it's a completely different topic for discussion, but, the Celtic Tiger years mean't a lot of money to be made throwing out tuning 'packs' for Civic's etc, which moved the game away from genuinely talented motorsport based tuners like Alan from Kane Automotive who could tune any engine (he helped me build my block for free as he's a good mate and knew everything there was to know about engine building).

 

I know of a.n. other engine tuner who added a four branch manifold, custom exhaust, and Omex management to an Mi16 at the cost of a couple of thousand and managed to return a massive 143bhp...

 

I think the biggest problem is that there's not enough Mi16's in the country to support tuning 'em, there's plenty of lads that will sell you a rolling road session, or an induction kit, or an exhaust, but no practical experience in tuning the engine itself, which is worth its weight in gold.

 

That's where the likes of Miles/PeterT come in, giants of men who, despite their propensity for madness, have a lot of hands-on experience of tuning dozens of Mi16's, and that's what really counts.

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DrSarty
he's a good mate and knew everything there was to know about engine building

 

Now THIS is a guy to know!

 

:D

 

Also remember that a top notch, reliable Mi16 or GTI6 engine in standard form is just as much fun. The money on a refresh, and possibly an aftermarket ECU to remap it might make it even better. The suggestion of the cam swap (plus keys or verniers) is easy when you're doing the refresh, so I would say it's a matter of budget really:

 

1) ~£400 complete engine refresh

2) ~£600 above plus cam, keys and chip

3) ~£2000 above plus ITBs and rolling road map

 

[4) The 8v turbo option with extra work for intercooling etc - as a guess - would be the same as (2), if not more]

 

Each one will give a jump in BHP, however as yours is a road car, your efforts IMHO should be towards making as large an area under the torque curve as possible, meaning your power is more accessible more of the time.

Edited by DrSarty

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Henry 1.9GTi

I would lean towards a different ECU.

 

My Mi has wild head and cams and I think its not faster than a stock engine. Daveboyblack reckons its a smidgeon faster than his, but could be due to having the fuel light on tbh.

 

It returns 20mpg (ballache) so something is not right, motronic bits seem great on a standard engine when all the bits are working correctly but as Miles said plugging in a laptop and it telling you exactly what the fault is, is alot easier than chasing dodgey connections and broken components.

 

Id go ECU and bodies, 180bhp and lots of noise!! :D

 

Mine will be going on management as soon as I can afford, the cars I have been in with it are just alot better.

 

PeterT's chip with a cam sounds like a good route to follow if budget contrains you(and the rest of us!)

Edited by Henry 1.9GTi
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eob

It's the path of least resistance stuff, if a slightly modified ECU, a cam and an induction kit will do the job, that's all I really want, I don't really need anything too mental. I'd like to retain the drivability and the way to that always seems to stick with the standard management, although I wouldn't be beyond driving her back to the UK to a decent tuner to be set up and maybe have an M3D fitted :D

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petert

10.4:1 is fine. I wrote 180+hp because decking the block/liners just makes it that little bit better. The reduced squish distance makes a huge difference to the burn rate and torque. My chip has more advance down low and less up high. There's no difference between the 2 and 3 row version, other than the 3 row has a guaranteed 7500 limit. I can't get the 2 row past 7200 for some strange reason and have given up trying.

 

I'm still offering the 205 group deal from Christmas - cam, chip and return postage for AUS$205.

 

 

I did an engine recently using Iapel pistons supplied by QEP. Nice big dome but also very deep valve pockets. The compression height is a standard 37.10mm. The result was only a compression ratio of 10.8:1. So I decked the block/liners 0.4mm to give zero deck height which gave 11.25:1. Other than a Stage I cam and sump mods, it was an otherwise standard engine, along with Motronic management. I didn't get a chance to dyno it unfornately, but I did check the AFR's. It's normally 12.7-12.8:1 using my chip to make 180hp, but this one went 13.1:1. So obviously making more hp using up more fuel (certainly wouldn't want any leaner). This was reflected in the performance. The customer is extremely happy.

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DrSarty

The induction kit mod is a pure myth. It only creates noise.

 

If it's power you must have, then spend your money elsewhere.

 

Give it as much cold, high pressure, dense air as you can, rather than be wowed by a snazzy coloured filter.

 

I know an Mi in a 205 engine bay doesn't leave you much room for much else; I just didn't want you thinking it makes any difference to performance whatsoever.

 

PeterT's cam, key & chip deal sounds the best option which actually meets the OP's question. There is some other work involved on the engine as stated which will cost more money, but I think most of us would recommend the engine refresh anyway before putting it in, so you might as well get that work and a little bit more done at the same time. As I said earlier, I reckon all in that's ~ £600.

 

Putting that in perspective, that's £600 for 20BHP. Now you can see why these eGay engine mods that suddenly give you 10 or 15BHP for £29.99 suck complete arse!

Edited by DrSarty

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bales
Engine was built by Neal at DES and has been seen in action by quite a few members on here

 

Well thats a bit different to how it was written then! The way you wrote it gave the impression (as most people do with bolt on mods) that all you need is to bolt some carbs on etc...then hey presto 210bhp.

 

If its been built properly and put together will with the right compression etc etc then I can fully see it making that. It was just the way you wrote it....so apologies for being a nay-sayer

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VisaGTi16v

If retaining the standard inlet isnt there the issue of the injectors only being able to flow enough for 180bhp at 100% duty cycle and thats presuming they are in "new" condition ie perfectly clean etc?

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mmt

Hi,

 

Do you have a picture of the "re-angeling" plate for the manifold?

 

Thanks

 

/Martin

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petert
If retaining the standard inlet isnt there the issue of the injectors only being able to flow enough for 180bhp at 100% duty cycle and thats presuming they are in "new" condition ie perfectly clean etc?

 

It's actually 185hp @ 85%.

 

"Re-angeling plate"

 

http://www.taylor-eng.com/conversion/conversion_parts.htm

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fast_eddie

Right, I am going to tell you exactly what I did to my MI engine when I put it in my 309 15 years ago(its still there btw!)

 

Took the head off

Cleaned the head to spotlessness and replaced the little oil gallery filters

Put in new standard big ends

replaced the oil pump

fitted 45's on a longman inlet manifold and piper trumpets

made a stainless steel exhaust converter using 3 inch pipe(i think) from the MI octopus maifold (using the steel 8v manifold ring as a base) which connected to my 8v magnex system

fitted the dizzy conversion adapter from longmans

Fitted a filter king

Put a webber carb jet in the return line to the fuel tank and fecked about drilling it out until the pressure was correct

Omex rev limit

 

Changed consumables like cambelt, water pump, head bolts etc etc.

 

After a bit of flames out of the carbs due to incorrect timing the engine ran.

Bruce065.jpg

 

Now here is the contentious bit. Please bear in mind that this car was featured in FAST CAR in 1990/91 iirc in a Peugeot sport rolling road special where we all ran our cars at Huddersfield performance centre's rolling road. My car had 5 people sitting on the front of it(really) and 4 people inside and the operater gave me most powerful pug of the day @ around 190 ish bhp...

 

I am not a bulls*itter and its all in black and white for the world to see u but I myself still dont really have a clue how much power the car really was/is putting out. I say IS because I have just brought it back out of storage and have started working on it again. The 45's ran without any filters at all for 15/20k miles and it was a daily driver for many years.

For me, the home made manifold with a straight through pipe(not split inside) made a massive top end gain-regularly going to 8k without propblems(on standard 8v ecu) and I adore the engines characteristics as it suits my rev happy driving style.

The car is quick and would go off the clock on a 1.9 8v gearbox where allowed but I dont really know how much power it has as most of my last rolling road sessions were spent trying to improve tickover.

 

If I had my time again, I would make another homebrewed exaust manifold, fit a set of T/B's and get an ECU to suit. But please bear in mind I did all the above on a standard 8v ecu which it still runs and some 45's. Some say upgraded cams ruin an MI engine but thats something that was bandied about 10 years ago.

Just my thoughts, probably not gospel now.

Cheers

Jon

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TheLarneMan
You'd be surprised eob that there is a few people in Ireland that do good mapping, especially for the rally boys. There is a fella near me that does dta management now [although im in the North] that is good with peugeot engines too. I think he did a guys mi16 and got it to 183bhp with tb's and emerald?

 

That would be my car - 183.1bhp and 146.1lb/ft.

Mi16 with ported head, CatCams inlet cam, Jenvey twin throttle bodies, PeugeotSport Group N exhaust, Emerald ECU.

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petert
That would be my car - 183.1bhp and 146.1lb/ft.

Mi16 with ported head, CatCams inlet cam, Jenvey twin throttle bodies, PeugeotSport Group N exhaust, Emerald ECU.

 

I don't normally make comments about dyno results because of the huge variations possible, however, I'd have to say I'd be disappointed to only get that much. I'd expect 190-195hp from that spec.

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TheLarneMan
I don't normally make comments about dyno results because of the huge variations possible, however, I'd have to say I'd be disappointed to only get that much. I'd expect 190-195hp from that spec.

 

I'm not one who reads much into bhp figures. As you say, there are huge variations - in rolling roads (and peoples egos) when it comes to power output. My engine has a very smooth, healthy power curve and the torque is pretty flat throughout the rev range. The engine is in a road car - I'm not interested in high peak bhp figures.

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Luca

Hey LarneMan have you got a Dyno card to post up so I can check out the torque output?

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TheLarneMan

Here you go:

 

POWER

Mi16power.jpg

 

 

TORQUE

Mi16torque.jpg

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Luca

i'd kill for figures like that!

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Dazza

Not been on here for a while , good to see my old mate Fast Eddie ...quite a driver our Eddie and that 309 left an impression in 1992 ..Yellow cam covers...

 

My 205 GT16v is a 200+ horse lunatic assylum that makes me very happy i spent to much cash on it !

 

My advise would be spend wisely , a good healthy standard 160 horse 16v 205 is great fun and a 200 horse track based 205 is bloody rapid ,on track mine pushes E36 M3's , Evo's and Scoobies to 125 mph (4.42 F/D) like its glued to there bumpers , as many of my fellow pug drivers mates will tell you it makes you smile ..a lot ...

 

Speak with Miles , Petert and Matt at Qep and the lads on here are exellent for this stuff , you wont go wrong mate.

 

All the best with it .

 

Dazza.

Edited by Dazza

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Mattsav
Here you go:

 

POWER

Mi16power.jpg

 

 

TORQUE

Mi16torque.jpg

 

Alans/Stevens Rollers do seem to be pretty much on the money fromt he results I've seen (plus they know what they're talking about)

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