Best Way To 180bhp Mi16?

[eob 7]

After my nightmare 205 build I'm finally getting towards the end. I've made sure to build a solid Mi16, finding a low-miles alloy block, and replacing everything in the engine via QEP, the boards sponsors, with new rings, honed liners, new valve stem seals, the valves freshly ground in, new shells, etc, etc. I think I spend about £400 in parts for the engine alone.

 

The end result is a solid, functioning Mi16 on standard everything. It's bolted to the stock 8v exhaust with a re-angling plate, unshortened manifold, and a simple 'universal' Ram-Air filter. The compression would also be slightly higher due to a precautionary head skim but nothing too aggressive.

 

I do have some maintenance to do, ie. refurbishing the AFM, getting the injectors cleaned, etc, and getting it up on a rolling road, but I'd estimate it's making around 150bhp. It's fast, but I want a tiny bit more

 

What is the safest route to create a drivable Mi16 with 180bhp? What is the most proven route? Which tuner? What parts?

 

I'm guessing...

 

- Decent set of fast road cams (any suggestions?)

- An induction kit actually designed for the Mi (again.. any suggestions?)

 

...would be enough to get it close to that figure, but I'd love to hear from people with tuning experience who've done it, and especially from anyone who's driving a 205 GTi with 180bhp?

 

I would like to keep the car as 'ownable' as possible as regards not-eye bleeding MPG and drivable at low speeds, but I find my current Mi almost too civilised and usable at normal speeds so I'm willing to sacrifice a bit around town.

 

Thanks in advance

[taylorspug 7]

If it were me, cams and management such as Omex, Emerald etc would do the job perfectly well. As long as the cams were sensible you would see 180hp easily, and the management would make the car better to drive in almost every situation.

 

A 205 with 180hp is a quick car, even with the sort of kit around on the market today. You certainly wouldnt get bored of it, especially as the MIs by their nature do love to rev! My old cammed MI was a much more fun and involving engine to use than the GTI6 ive got in the car now.

[sideways danny 0]

personally, I'd go for throttle bodies and Omex, and stick with stock cams. You'll find it's more drivable, makes more torque everywhere, and isn't as peaky as anything but very mild cams would be.

[eob 7]

I'm actually surprisingly reluctant to go with aftermarket engine management, simply because it becomes a professional job to diagnose when it goes wrong, whereas troubleshooting why a standard Motronic won't start can be done by someone fairly simple (me )

 

Also, for all the hype that surrounds aftermarket ECU packages... I have a close friend with a Saab 900 Turbo running Megasquirt who would be a hell of a lot more capable than me when it comes to tuning who is only after a years running getting close to the stock ECU in terms of BHP (he's using the MS to run Ethanol) and nowhere near the MPG, even on petrol.

 

I'm guessing 180bhp on the stock Motronic, even a mapped one, is a pipe dream?

 

BTW Dave, I agree completely 180bhp is really the absolute maximum I want in a 205 GTi, I think that's the limit between building a supremely fast, usable hot hatch. Above that you start needing to look at an LSD and really more of a track orientated car

Edited May 31, 2009 by eob

[taylorspug 7]

You could do 180hp on the Motronic, there are chips available from petert on here which im sure would help with this along with a cam upgrade, id imagine it would do the trick, but have no hands on experience with the chips in question.

 

To an extent i agree with you on the management thing. Im in the process of putting Emerald on my car at the moment along with throttle bodies, and ive had to wire up alot of extra stuff on the Emerald to even get close to the features offered by the standard ECU! I also have similar issues with MPG, not i use the car everyday, but i just like driving it and dont want to be limited in doing this by how much it costs me in juice!

 

The difference with Motronic is its quite basic in its operation, so a well mapped aftermarket setup would net good results. Its also extremely easy to diagnose aftermarket management problems- just plug the lap top in and see whats not working! Personally i wouldnt reccommend Megasquirt to anyone, people seem to have nothing but trouble with it, and im sure its doing nowhere near as good a job on your friends Saab as the standard stuff was. The performance gap between something like a homebrew Megasquirt and a properly installed and set up Omex/DTA/Emerald is night and day though!

[blue_haddock 2]

A good mate of mine is running approx 208bhp from just a decent set of CatCams and and a pair of twin 45 carbs. I would of thought if you just went with the carbs you'd be pretty close to 180bhp.

[Batfink 201]

well I got 176bhp from a set of throttlebodies. Its not the cheapest but its reliable, you get a stonking mid range torque bonus.

Done properly its as reliable as a standard engine...

[bales 1]

A good mate of mine is running approx 208bhp from just a decent set of CatCams and and a pair of twin 45 carbs. I would of thought if you just went with the carbs you'd be pretty close to 180bhp.

 

Is that real or pub bhp though?

 

210bhp from a 1.9 n/a engine isn't exactly messing about is it...

 

I don't think you would get a 20-30bhp increase from 'just' carbs, plus I doubt he would want the drivability issues if he likes his motronic so much.

 

I would agree that carbs + cams might get you around the 180bhp mark though, but personally I wouldnt bother with carbs.

[welshpug 1,661]

definitely real bhp!

[wracing 19]

mega squirt + wideband o2 and maybe an inlet cam

 

alot better driveabillity

if you make it go closed loop you can get good mpg

i should imagine it wont struggle to make 180hp as the motronic maps don't have very aggressive ignition timing.

 

i know im going to upset people when i say this but why spend 600+ when 200 can do it better???

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

I;ve got a customer's car on a 4-2-1 exhaust manifold and a GTi6 Inlet running Emerald and now that it's been mapped properly it runs very sweat and even return's fair MPG, As said to diag any fault's it's a laptop job so is very easy unlike the std ECU.

 

Power wise as it was on Bike Bodies before was susposed 200bhp, but with the Gti6 inlet and nothing else changed has gone down to 170bhp but the rollers it was done on are a unknown so we don;t have any comparission's so one of those figures is out.

 

This Mega .... isn't worth the hassle and many mapper's I speak to don;t map them because of all the known issue's with them and mainly the DIY part of it which can take hours and hour's to fix.

[hexhamstu 9]

I wouldn't bother with carbs if its a daily driver! or at all really, if you have the money buy a proper ECU!

[weejimmy 1]

my 1st mi was 176bhp and was standard.

came from a citroen and only had a exhaust and fiter.

 

there can be a big varaition form engine to engine, but whatever you have you want more.

i would say a 4-2-1 mainifold, the one thats designed for a 205 mi16.. (think miles dose them) and boddies as well.

seen 195bhp on this alone,

new aftermarket ecu is a lifetime away from a stock ecu. dont be put off by, it defo better all round.

[eob 7]

The GTi6 inlet cam seems to be a no brainer and a good place to start?

[taffycrook 2]

I have done quite a few 180bhp mi16s in road cars, there are a few ways of going about it.

Std engine and TB's or 45's just about gets there on some and goes above on others, cam timing seems to be the key here.

Inlet only cam on std ecu, this is my prefered route and have done quite a few always at the 180 ish mark.

Re profiled cams still mild road but inlet and exhaust makes for cheap 180 ish, cam timing adj to get the best out of them.

 

Using inlet only cam is the prefered method, as it can be built on, a safe way to ensure the money spent isn't wasted on the next step up the modifiying ladder, as you will soon get used to 180.

[blue_haddock 2]

Is that real or pub bhp though?

 

210bhp from a 1.9 n/a engine isn't exactly messing about is it...

 

Engine was built by Neal at DES and has been seen in action by quite a few members on here

[Anthony 1,003]

The GTi6 inlet cam seems to be a no brainer and a good place to start?

GTi-6 cams won't fit an Mi16/S16.

 

Probably the cheapest and easiest way to get a bit more pep is something like a Petert Stage 1 inlet cam regrind - do a search and you'll find plenty of happy reviews of it, and you're only looking at around £100 or so. I doubt you'll see 180hp out of it with everything else standard, but you won't be far off and it will work well with future mods like TB's and aftermarket management.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

GTi-6 cams won't fit an Mi16/S16.

 

Probably the cheapest and easiest way to get a bit more pep is something like a Petert Stage 1 inlet cam regrind - do a search and you'll find plenty of happy reviews of it, and you're only looking at around £100 or so. I doubt you'll see 180hp out of it with everything else standard, but you won't be far off and it will work well with future mods like TB's and aftermarket management.

 

Agreed.

 

Peter's package of stage I or II inlet cam, plus 2 x offset woodruff keys (as verniers can cost a packet - one key advances the inlet slightly; the other retards the exhaust slightly) and a relimited chip for the ECU I reckon will give you mid to high 170's. But the point is IMO it's not just number chasing. Surely you want accessible, tractable power, that doesn't make the car difficult in the cold or stuttery on light throttle? I reckon that lot's not much more than £250.

 

For a road car I would say (as Pete says) 'snap the neck' throttle response, predictability, reliability and fuel economy are what you're after. Matched with a good gearbox/final drive, I personally think this combination makes the best bang for buck return with minimal effort.

 

If in the future you decided to go further, then it's only about £1,500 to add a decent ECU (not MS..sorry. Been there.) and bang some bodies on a decent inlet with a fine mapping session. This'll see you waft through 190-200 I'd say and still retain a happy, manageable but barn-storming car.

[DjB 0]

I have seen Peters work first hand and I'm also having a bottomend built by Peter and will say its the best method of getting power out of a 8V or 16V.

 

http://www.taylor-eng.com/

 

 

This should help you along.

 

 

Chris

[taylorspug 7]

I will also put forward Autosprint for reground cams. Had a set and couldnt fault them, very impressive performance wise.

[sideways danny 0]

Also, for all the hype that surrounds aftermarket ECU packages... I have a close friend with a Saab 900 Turbo running Megasquirt who would be a hell of a lot more capable than me when it comes to tuning who is only after a years running getting close to the stock ECU in terms of BHP (he's using the MS to run Ethanol) and nowhere near the MPG, even on petrol.

 

I'd say that's due to using MS to be honest. It's VERY basic

[petert 588]

i should imagine it wont struggle to make 180hp as the motronic maps don't have very aggressive ignition timing.

 

Definitely not on the pace. My chips have less ignition timing, not more.

 

I make 180+hp engines as my entry level engine. The recipe is simple:

 

Stage I reground inlet cam

10.8:1 CR

Motronic 1.3 with my chip

 

They also get 41 mpg.

 

You may not have 10.8:1, but you'll be close.

Edited May 31, 2009 by petert

[welshpug 1,661]

is 10.4 close enough pete? seeing as that's what the majority of UK spec 9 and 10J4 engines run at?

[eob 7]

I really just got my head planed so there's not much a skim to be honest, would be unsure about the compression ratio. Without asking you to give away trade secrets, PeterT, what's changed with the actual ECU map? Retaining the standard ECU, because I'm in Ireland, is a plus point because there's no real expertise on the island in 205's or French stuff in general, it's all Japanese here , so there is basically nobody to bring an Emerald to unless you've got a WRC budget

Edited May 31, 2009 by eob

[Redtop 14 2 Cars]

You'd be surprised eob that there is a few people in Ireland that do good mapping, especially for the rally boys. There is a fella near me that does dta management now [although im in the North] that is good with peugeot engines too. I think he did a guys mi16 and got it to 183bhp with tb's and emerald? Don't know the full spec. Best to try and search around and find someone local to yourself that does aftermarket ecu's and if they use a particular brand that they know well, then use that, as it's be easier for them to work with, if you know what I mean.