kyepan 291 Posted December 23, 2011 One other thing we may need, (as Anthony mentioned it earlier) is containers for dumping the oil and coolant into... check ;-) suitable receptacles are on site. Looks like your missing a rocker cover bolt, but we can use old one. you are eagle eyed, i wondered if anyone would spot that Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paul_13 212 1 Cars Posted December 23, 2011 (my "where do they go?" question was rhetorical - not as in "where do they fit?" but "where do they all disappear to?" as most Mi engines I see have one or both lifting eyes missing for reasons I've never quite understood) I read it wrong, makes sense now Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyepan 291 Posted December 24, 2011 Yes there is, and I've got one here (my "where do they go?" question was rhetorical - not as in "where do they fit?" but "where do they all disappear to?" as most Mi engines I see have one or both lifting eyes missing for reasons I've never quite understood) So they should be fitted then, people probably take them off to save weight, in the same way they fold the rear seats flat to lower the centre of gravity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baz 421 Posted December 24, 2011 Looks like an engine again! I wouldn't run it on Fully Synth personally, these are old engines and AFAIU the mineral content is valuable to some extent. (my "where do they go?" question was rhetorical - not as in "where do they fit?" but "where do they all disappear to?" as most Mi engines I see have one or both lifting eyes missing for reasons I've never quite understood) As JB says, probably to save weight. Yes it's negligible, but when the engine is fitted, at home in it's engine bay, what is the point of lifting eyes being a permanent fixture...? I must say i don't see the point in removing them either really, but for it's 'active life' they serve absolutely no purpose so i can see the reasoning. Rhetorical. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyepan 291 Posted December 24, 2011 (edited) Looks like an engine again! I wouldn't run it on Fully Synth personally, these are old engines and AFAIU the mineral content is valuable to some extent. thanks dude, fingers crossed it will run and work properly. About the semi... I've ran my current engine on a mixture of semi and fully synthetic oil for the past four years, and had no issues. I wonder what the mineral content does... Edited December 24, 2011 by kyepan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyepan 291 Posted December 27, 2011 (edited) yesterday, Paul, Anthony and i removed the engine, paul said in about 45 mins. Then proceeded to spend the next few hours separating the bits we needed. Exhaust manifold removal Other items removed: Inlet manifold Plumbing - oil and water Gearbox. Then cleaning everything off, including the engine bay. .. and gave pauls car it's yearly wash. and the engine bay it's first ever wash. got muck off the old engine then home with some bits to put on the new engine. we also decided to change the cam bearing cap bolts to the hex ones on the engine rather than the cap bolts on there currently, so we brought those home too, read on and you'll understand why i've mentioned this minor point. One thing i have learned, and something you should always do is .. Make sure you're careful when putting cam bearing caps on, as a bolt fell down into the head, and ended up half way down an oil way, luckily, turning the engine upside down helped fish it out. then - not learning the lesson a bearing cap was placed on its side (by me i might add) and got knocked, two bolts fell out, one onto the floor, and another went into the head again.. This time we could not locate it.. rotating the engine again upside down confirmed our fears, it was indeed in the combustion chamber. so again i went fishing, and hooked it within about 5 minutes... Crisis over... second lesson learned, always put spark plugs in. then we lost a bolt, or thought we lost a bolt from one of the other caps that was not even on the engine yet, and spent a rather tense time trying to locate it. After perhaps an hour of tidying and searching, we decided we had not lost it, and it had probably got lost in transit, or somewhere around the build area that we can't ascertain, but probably definitely not in the engine, and certainly not in the combustion chambers, because we checked all of them several times. Causing the girls watching tele to have to sit in silence, and not even talk whilst we carefully rotated the engine on the stand listening for the slightest sound, is actually a little bit amusing. So we resolved to use one of the cap bolts instead. Also cleaning out the extended PeterT pickup, let me find more of the wire wool from the oil filler cap... why oh why they put wire wool in an oil filler i have no idea. So we torqued up the caps. Then timed up the engine and proceeded to turn it over gingerly, it did turn over very smoothly, but every now and a gain we heard a "peng" sound, this was found to be the tissue holding the oil pump gear in place. phew, Turning it over again some more with plugs in properly showed we already had some fairly healthy compression on three of the cylinders, Anthony tells me the others should come with a little bit of oil down them. Today we are going to sort out a few wiring related bodges, but apart from that, the job is Inlet on flywheel, clutch and box on. ancillaries on engine in Plumb Fill with fluids Prime oil system Turn key, cross everything. Cheers J Edited December 27, 2011 by kyepan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pier_bruce 0 1 Cars Posted December 27, 2011 (edited) Good luck with ur first run, oh love the workshop my mrs would be spitting feathers Edited December 27, 2011 by pier_bruce Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
welshpug 1,657 Posted December 27, 2011 (edited) should be running by now then Edited December 27, 2011 by welshpug Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anthony 1,003 Posted December 28, 2011 I'll leave Justin to comment further and add pictures when he's back in a few days, but suffice to say that everything didn't exactly go according to plan... We got the engine finished and dropped into the engine bay, sorting out most of the various bodges and faults we'd found along the way. Firstly disconnected the ignition and injectors, removed the plugs and cranked it over a few times until it showed oil pressure - as always, it takes a couple more cranks than you think before you see any pressure and you start worrying if there's something amiss when really it's fine. Plugs back in, ignition and injectors reconnected, turn the key and..... it spins over with seemingly no compression We checked cam timing and belt tension and that was all absolutely spot on still, cam cover off and confirmed that everything appeared OK with the cams and valvetrain at a glance, and basically checked everything we could - but alas, something was clearly very wrong somewhere. It had felt like it was low on compression when I'd turned it over the night before by hand, but I'd just put that down to it being a new engine. We didn't have a compression tester to hand, but to be honest it wasn't going to tell us anything we didn't already know - when an engine has so little compression that it sounds identical turning over with the plugs removed as when they're installed, it's pretty obvious that there's next to no compression. We did manage to borrow the use of a leak down tester however, and the result was pretty conclusive - 100% cylinder leakage on at least two of the cylinders (ie the two we checked) and no reason to suspect that the other two are any better. I'd not personally done a leak down test before and I initially wondered if I was doing something wrong with such a catastrophic result, but Justin's mechanic housemate that we'd borrowed it from popped over and confirmed the results I was getting. Further diagnosis points to the issue being something related to the exhaust valves as the air being pumped into the cylinder from the leak down tester is just going straight out of the exhaust despite the cam lobe being in a position whereby the valve should be closed. Hard to say exactly what the fault is at this point, but everything points towards something causing the valves not to seal at all - I can only think of three likely opinions given that the cam timing appears correct, namely that the valves are bent or damaged, that there is no seal between the valve and the seat, or that something is holding the valve partly open - and whatever the issue is, it's common to all four cylinders (hence initially suspecting cam timing) In theory, none of those should be the case given how meticulous the build was, but I can't think of anything else it can be. The valves were all recut and given a final lapping in, so that should have highlighted any bent valves or poor seating, and the hydraulic lifters were all new - although they were all pattern (non-OE) items and I'm wondering if there's something amiss with them that's causing the valves to be stuck open, be it that they've pumped up (they all now feel rock hard despite having only been exposed to limited cranking oil pressure) or that they're incorrect for the engine. At this point we were out of time, tired, hungry and a jerry can and matches were starting to look like an attractive option, so called it a night and subjected it to the tow of shame back behind my 306 - I swear that car has towed more broken 205's than the AA... Plan is that when Justin's back he's going to remove the camshafts completely and do another leak down test - if there's something wrong with the lifters then the test should show minimal leakage with the cams removed, whereas if it's a valve or seat related issue, then the results should be unchanged and the head will need to come off to see what's wrong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cheesegrater 43 1 Cars Posted December 28, 2011 Bastards! Thats very annoying and such a shame seeing as all the work that's gone in to it! Is it possible that they're the wrong lifters and are as such holding the valve down even when the closed part of the lobe? Didn't even get to pressure test my dodgy bit of welding Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paul_13 212 1 Cars Posted December 28, 2011 It was a bit frustating to say the least, but these things happen. My guess is the lifters, as the valves closed/sealed fine when the head was off the block. That welding was shocking Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petert 586 Posted December 29, 2011 I've just tuned back into this after the Christmas break. Bad luck guys. A real show stopper! I hope it's just the lifters. I've never seen a good after market lifter. Find some good originals and give them a make over. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyepan 291 Posted January 2, 2012 Firstly great thanks to Paul and Anthony, for their time and support. After a few days off in Amsterdam with the good lady kyepan, and a right old knees up with her mates in London for new year, I've had some time to think things over. The very short version of what I think is wrong is - some / many the lifters are / were over primed by myself when I took them apart and refilled them, meaning that the valves are not on their seats when the cam is not actuating. The longer version, I googled, engine rebuild no compression, and it seemed this is a fairly common issue, lots of people tow start the cars to get the lifters back in tolerance. I'm not happy doing this and am going to take a simpler if little bit more time consuming approach. Have a look at these links. http://geometroforum.com/topic/1524467/1/ Lifters http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cylinder-head-short-block/209582-rebuilt-head-now-car-has-no-compression.html Lifters over extended. http://forums.mg-rover.org/showthread.php?t=144317 mmmmm http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/797429-66-240-cid-hydraulic-lifter-install.html ...?? http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/big-block-chevy-valve-adjustment-trouble-no-compression-24450.html I'm not going to take the cams out - yet, instead I am going to do the following. Take the cam covers off....cambelt stays on ....and put four lobes of the camshaft ...pushing right down ...two on the exhaust camshaft and two on the inlet camshaft ...leave for 20 mins .... do the same on the others .....there are four moves altogether. will take you eighty mins . This will comprees the tappets....and make them leak down...and hopefully after doing this it will start. And then re-test with the leak down tester. This will simply rule out the lifters. Then if this doesn't work, I'll take the cams out and retest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyepan 291 Posted January 2, 2012 A quick reply, so the rotating the engine technique has not worked, I still have zero compression registering on the tester. I have some cylinder sealing on all cylinders, (mouth over spark plug hole and blow hard), which results in air coming back out of the Adjacent or other cylinder's spark plug hole. Depending on where the cams are A quick note on bent valves - the head was put on without cams in, and the cams were put in with the bottom end in the correct position, and the belt put on almost immediately afterwards, so unless the valves were bent, before we took the head off, which we did with the timing pins in, and it was not noticed by paul when he back cut them, or me when I lapped them in... Then I find it hard to understand how they have got bent. Anyway, I'm going to try the lifter bleeding technique one more time this time with a bit of gentle heat on them to see if it will help the oil move, and then take the cams out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyepan 291 Posted January 2, 2012 Cam out, tester on, four of the lifters on the exhaust side were stuck down, tap with Hyde mallet got them moving, Gauge on the leak down tester wound up to max on one cylinder, happy bunny . going to test others now. Wooooooo.m Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paul_13 212 1 Cars Posted January 2, 2012 Wahey! Just about to return your call Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyepan 291 Posted January 2, 2012 Other cylinders also tested ok, so I'm binning the new lifters in preference of a refaced set from the engine that just came out. Hopefully the stuck lifters didn't bend any valves.. W can only find out by putting it back together and running it up. Perhaps sometime tomorrow morning. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyepan 291 Posted January 2, 2012 Highs and lows quite literally. Refaced and compressed eom lifters ready for refitting. Upon removing the pattern fitted lifters, I noticed one was still stuck, clearly this was not good, and upon wiggling it free, the lower lifter bore had clearly taken the brunt of the force, and picked up quite badly.... Sigh. After a couple of minutes dispair I figured out that the picking up was only as bad as the cam journals in the head, and as such, not insurmountaeble, and whilst the scoring was reasonably deep it was localised in width and depth, plenty of good material left. I then began to notice it wasn't the only one, about five or six have some form of damage, all localised around what I think was the oil hole for the lifter. So, and I know many people wont agree with this, I resolved to take down the high spots in situe. Basically test fitting the new lifters using my magnetic telescopic finder thingy, I got a feel for how much resistance an oiled and undamaged bore had, then figured out which ones were tight ( damaged) then inspected. Tearing off a small sliver of wet and dry, I wrapped it around a cable tie, and gently fished away the high spots for a few rubs, then cleaned with a clean tshirt on the end of the cable tie, fitted the lifter, then checked resistance. After a while all the lifters were moving with similar resistance. I don't understand why this has happened, which means I don't know how to stop it happening again. Tomorrow, I'll fit the cams and fire it up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cheesegrater 43 1 Cars Posted January 3, 2012 Good effort! We now need a genuine first start video! The other one that Paul posted was clearly fake Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paul_13 212 1 Cars Posted January 3, 2012 Mwahaha mwahaha it lives! Just doing 50 miles in it now Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyepan 291 Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) Again thanks to Paul, for helping out today,, It does indeed live, and appears to be running smoothly, we did about 40 miles this evening using dave bakers running in technique. Although I was shocked at how rough it sounded for the first couple of minutes, it rapidly settled down and loosened up. We did one short loop and noticed a leak, thinking it was just over filling. Then off again for some laps of a local dual carriage way, shadowed by dad in his Volvo. After that we went a bit further and did a couple of laps of a long quiet national speed limit loop to keep things going. It's already much quieter than the old engine, and much much less vibration, which is especially noticeable after lifting off, very pleased. We only got it up to 5k rpm briefly towards the end of the run, and it was just chiming in and wanting to rev, so tomorrow i'll do another ten miles, drop the oil, change the filter, and do another fifty miles. Small water leak somewhere that I will fix tomorrow Cheers J Edited January 4, 2012 by kyepan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dcc 855 Posted January 4, 2012 Best end (well mid - hopefully) part of a thread ever! The guy gets his girl! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kyepan 291 Posted January 4, 2012 Paul has a classic video Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
