[project] Sarty Evo II - Phase 2 Of Project Sarty

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

The amazing roads on the EuroTrip have prompted me to make my new creation. Simply put, the 2.2 16valve engine is solid and outperforms the car; I need to make the car's rolling chassis catch up with its powerplant. I will post some video of acceleration on here & on the (Versus Garry) 'Roll-On Low Boost S/C' thread very shortly to show you what we have to play with in this regard.

 

To do this I am shelving 'Sarty Sideways' (my RWD Saab 2.3 Turbo powered E36 project) in favour of the ultimate 205 road car.*

 

*Please note: this is not meant as competition, or arrogance, just my creation from my point of few.

 

Having said that, I did post a thread on here about 18mths ago (or more) regarding such an ultimate 205 beasty. So with the information & opinions gleaned from that PLUS what I've learnt about the car 'as is' & its performance during track work, motorway GT cruising & hooning round the best twisties in the world together with general everyday living with it, I feel I can have a good stab at making a modern-day, effective 205 rival to a new Focus Cosworth.

 

Here's the current plan for PS Evo II:

 

Colin Satchell (Eeyore) & Sandy Brown (Sandy) have been consulted & commissioned to investigate, price & hopefully create a white rolling chassis, modified with custom suspension ready to be fitted with the 2.2 engine & a mint interior. The points discussed were covered mainly during the EuroTrip - often on the walkie-talkies - with PugTorque, Madant, Bonzai, Thirdtimelucky amongst others, and then fine tuned today by telephone. The game is on...

 

Objective: To create a modern-day 205 as a comfortable, hyper-performing road car. I want stability at all speeds (no flapping, misfitting doors), reduced road noise, bomb-proof suspension & transmission reliability achieved by new & custom made parts, derived from 25 years of performance tuning experience, modification, ingenuity & fabrication skills. It will be safer (due to the above & in a crash due to cage-type additions), with more acceleration, handling & braking, & better (smoother) cruising performance making it capable on public roads & circuits. It may also enter 12 car road rallies & scatters.

 

One issue that MUST be addressed - and will be done via Colin's expertise - is driveshaft performance & reliability. I fitted new GKNs the day before the EuroTrip, and 2 days in they started clunking! The solution will be a custom 406 variant, which will also make use of 405/406 hubs & hub carriers complete with custom, poly bushed wishbones. I'll also get 406 or Seat Brembo 4-pots fitted via this method, support by braided lines (brake & fuel) throughout.

 

We have my TSW'd car to rob from, so yes Maxi, one dies to make another live. This is because I want - and possibly have access already to - a white, sunroofed rolling shell.

 

Transferred items:

Auto bonnet

2.2 hybrid engine with Emerald ECU

Interior (dash complete, new/revamped carpets over sound deadening) seats re-upholstered & re-leathered (dark grey with subtle red accent/piping)

Stereo system with new, removable sub box (which will include both amps to maximise weight reduction when unclipped/plugged & lifted out)

Exhaust system (if servicable, including manifold OR Maniflow will make a custom manifold. Lambda probe hole removed/bunged)

Tank guards

Group N top mounts

BE3 1.9 box with Tran-X diff & Miles' (awesome) gear linkages

[Doors, boot, wings etc as necessary depending on state of white shell used]

 

This means un-reused items, e.g. Innovate LC-1 wideband lambda sensor, refurbed 309 rear beam, front struts complete (have Monroe shocks & -35mm Eibach springs fitted) & front brakes, OMP strut brace, windows all round & rear seats will be available for sale. Oh yes: and the TSW wheels with excellent Goodyear tyres.

 

The shell will be cookie cutter lightened where possible, BUT also seam welded & strengthened with a mix of invisible structural improvements & a semi, inobtrusive cage with bracing, including a rear turret brace (also what the bass box will clamp to) & a welded in but unboltable front strut brace (still the home of the LS1 coils). The rear seats will not be returning, although a kiddie seat mount will be added. The front of the car will be plush, with the newly coached seats & the rails strengthened & cleaned.

 

The possible use of a custom manifold will save the need for any modifications to the bulkhead, and all of the turrets & bracing & custom mounts for (the new) oil catch tank, engine relay box, expansion tank, fuel filter & washer bottle, will all be done prior to the shell being treated to sand blasting, NO acid dip, but galvanising, priming & painting (white - version TBC). Door mounts will have been strengthened - I DO NOT want any more sagging/double-slam door syndrome - and when it all goes back together it will be treated to new rubbers, glass & neat and tidy (read: hidden) loomage.

 

I believe the weight will roughly end up the same so performance gains will come from better ability to lose speed whilst also carrying it into & though corners.

 

Black powdered coated C5 steelies with great rubber and a red bead trim on the wheel, will compliment a unique look of white, black, dark grey interior with red accents, which I hope will keep it true to being a 205 in appearance and a real animal underneath.

 

Welcome to the ®evolution...

 

 

With properly set-up suspension, I believe it can be achieved to have a very, very...frighteningly capable but user-friendly, easy driving, comfortable hot-hatch, which will rival modern day versions in more ways than the 205 does currently.

Edited May 12, 2009 by DrSarty

[marksorrento205 80]

Cant wait to see this one unfold...

[Batfink 201]

I'd only consider cutting out where plastic panels will hide the lightening work as I think it will loose that OEM feel.

Sounds like a more extreme version of the renault megane R26.R

For a road car I think I'd try to run as light a cage as possible. This solves the door issue due to the stiffer shell

I'd carpet from front to rear to make it look ultra tidy

 

Can you road rally any car with any modifications you like??

 

You will probably want to run around 140lb on the rear to be nice and soft. Certainly thats what i started with (I have those spare if you want them.) Not sure about the front. Spring choice will be critical for ride comfort. Maybe look at Eibach ERS range and run a soft tender spring to catch the worst bumps. Also I think two piece disks should be used as unsprung weight will spoil the ride you desire. Kyepan and I were discussing this a while back as he has decided to move back to standard disks and calipers to regain 'lost' handling.

 

Great idea though and i think far more interesting than the other project!!

Edited May 12, 2009 by Batfink

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Thanks for your support (and advice) Kev. I may take you up on the springs idea; although I hope you respect I'll consult with Colin first. First 'dibs'.

 

This is how I've achieved what I have already. Throwing ideas or questions up & out and seeing what comes back. You're fairly knowlegdable & you also have an affinity with Colin which could prove most useful; hence me valueing your input.

 

With a happy engine, I want to attack the complete package now. Bear in mind this will result in an £8,000 205 in the end; however that's a bargain considering bang for buck, that 8 grand nowadays new, would get me a Ford Ka!!!

 

EDIT: And yes, I know: I could get an M3 or 2 MX5s. But this will be new, AND retro.

Edited May 12, 2009 by DrSarty

[maturin23 10]

It'll still be a front-wheel-driven, torsion beamed rattle box though

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

It'll still be a front-wheel-driven, torsion beamed rattle box though

 

No...it won't!!!! Even the current one isn't; just ask Steve.

 

[steve@cornwall 100]

Custom loom? would simplify future maintenance, considerably improve reliability- in for a penny.................

[Baz 421]

Using off the shelf rather than too many custom, bespoke parts as you mention will help to reduce any complications in the build and then at later dates when replacements are needed etc.

[rubyna 4 1 Cars]

Hi Dr.S glad your home safe and sound, sounds like it was a trip of a lifetime for sure,hopefully you will conjour up somthing for next year, as the gti6 is going in shortly hence it was getting that done or going on the trip!!

Well this new project sounds awesome and i await updates with anticipation...

Regards Luke...

[Batfink 201]

Thanks for your support (and advice) Kev. I may take you up on the springs idea; although I hope you respect I'll consult with Colin first. First 'dibs'.

 

This is how I've achieved what I have already. Throwing ideas or questions up & out and seeing what comes back. You're fairly knowlegdable & you also have an affinity with Colin which could prove most useful; hence me valueing your input.

 

With a happy engine, I want to attack the complete package now. Bear in mind this will result in an £8,000 205 in the end; however that's a bargain considering bang for buck, that 8 grand nowadays new, would get me a Ford Ka!!!

 

EDIT: And yes, I know: I could get an M3 or 2 MX5s. But this will be new, AND retro.

 

sure thing. We upgraded to 180lb later. Not sure that this was as comfortable on the road though improved things on track. I dont think Colin recommends running much higher though with a little more weight on the rear it might be needed.

To be honest I think an £8k custom car is pretty cheap. Just it looks like a 205

Just wish I could get mine built as an interesting comparison!

 

What about looking for a green interior as I think its a more classy look. Would work with the white car...

I've got a sorrento car in my garage if you want to check it out.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Using off the shelf rather than too many custom, bespoke parts as you mention will help to reduce any complications in the build and then at later dates when replacements are needed etc.

 

Totally agree Basil; that has always been my chosen route.

 

I want to limit custom/bespoke items, but I'm being forced into a corner in certain regards. The braking items'll be standard, and almost everything for the engine is standard.

 

It seems my car likes to 'eat' driveshafts and 'oval' hub carriers, so I've been forced to go for custom driveshafts (as nothing else is up to the job it seems) and change to different stub axle carriers for which any standard wishbone is not suitable.

 

Those are the only replacable parts I can think of that are custom at this stage.

 

Steve@Cornwall>

It already has a custom loom; I made it. But it's not quite as tidy as I would like and I can (as can anyone else not running a closed loop lambda for their ECU) remove it simplifying the loom even more. I've heard of modern car door loom connectors being used as bulkhead loom connectors, making engine removal/connection much simpler. I plan to do this.

Edited May 12, 2009 by DrSarty

[jackherer 543]

To do this I am shelving 'Sarty Sideways' (my RWD Saab 2.3 Turbo powered E36 project)

 

Thats bad timing, I pulled the gearbox and prop out of my Omega last weekend for you

[aCe 0]

Richard i remember talking to you about dry sumping your engine and dropping 3-4 inches, since then i have been thinking about it but i cant see it working as the gearbox casing still would sit so low also it may stress the driveshafts.

 

Can any one else add to that^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^???????????????

Edited May 12, 2009 by aCe

[welshpug 1,657]

the 406 shaft shortened IIRC will fit the 205 hub, so no need to swap them, if I were to swap hubs at all I personally would opt for late 306 hubs with the larger balljoint pin (18mm, doesnt fit the 205 wishbone balljoint) and some lower wishbones that utilise a late 306 18mm balljoint, I know someone who will be working on something along these lines later this year hopefully...

 

another thing I would do , is to use something like a wilwood caliper on the front, as you'll struggle to fit a brembo 406 caliper under a C5 wheel due to the offset required to clear the caliper (could solve that with 406 coupe 16" wheels...)

[Batfink 201]

Richard i remember talking to you about dry sumping your engine and dropping 3-4 inches, since then i have been thinking about it but i cant see it working as the gearbox casing still would sit so low also it may stress the driveshafts.

 

Can any one else add to that^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^???????????????

 

you cant lower it that much without standing the engine more upright and running a really flat custom sump.

I have the pace system and I think we got the engine down around an inch - if that...

A standard sump is deep at the front but quite shallow at the rear.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Lowering the engine has been binned (James), and I like Meirion's idea/suggestion about the brakes. This will be discussed with Colin; although it's unlikely I'll go beyond 15" wheels.

[welshpug 1,657]

in that case sticking to something like 266 or 283mm discs and a wilwood or similar caliper will make more sense than a 406 brembo caliper, the 406 disc weighs a LOT, and compared to a nice light cali[per even the brembo's aren't that light, but still a lot lighter than an equivalent cast iron caliper.

[EdCherry 34 1 Cars]

If your going to the trouble of changing calipers for a wilwood 4 pots, do yourself a favour and change to 2 piece discs. Weight savings to be had!

[hexhamstu 9]

i like the sound of this! after reading about the 106 maxi covered in carbon car on the rallyeregister i have been day dreaming about my dream 205 since. cant wait to see what you come up with rich. (cant remember the name of the owner of that 106 or find a link, maybe mei knows as i think it was him that showed me in the first place.)

Edited May 12, 2009 by hexhamstu

[EdCherry 34 1 Cars]

i like the sound of this! after reading about the 106 maxi covered in carbon car on the rallyeregister i have been day dreaming about my dream 205 since. cant wait to see what you come up with rich. (cant remember the name of the owner of that 106 or find a link, maybe mei knows as i think it was him that showed me in the first place.)

 

Bic - Streamline Carbon

[GLPoomobile 958]

Such exciting plans, and yet after reading all of that the thing that pleased me most was the promise of ditching those f***ing gay wheels

 

Coincidentally I removed the campaign from my signature just a few days ago, so I'm going to claim this as a resounding success on my part

[Cloverleaf 1]

Bic's car cost many times the budget of this car tho!

 

Anyway, this sounds like an awesome build. I trial fitted some 1.9 speedlines over my Brembo's with 16mm spacers and they just cleared - I have ordered 20mm ones though to give some contingency. As said, go with an aftermarket caliper and 2 piece disc if you have the budget. You may be able to get something dreamy like second hand AP's for a similar price to the better wilwoods if you monitor ebay.

 

C5 wheels sounds good (and not just 'cause I have these also). Will make the car look like a sleeper and are seriously light. Staying at 15" will also help your tyre choice a lot.

[maturin23 10]

I can't contribute anything technically-related here - plenty of experts here, but I can play Devil's Advocate on a more general basis and I know from experience that you don't mind being put on the spot. .

 

if one is starting on a project a clear objective needs to be in place - both as something to aim for AND to achieve.

 

So far you've said "ultimate 205 road car" and also implied that it will need to match or better the new Focus RS.

 

Are you looking to end up with a distillation of all that is good about the 205 GTI, or are you aiming to produce a car that's as quick and/or as fun and/or as refined and/or as safe as the RS?

 

I don't think you can do all or even many combinations of two the above.

 

I love your enthusiasm and I'm pleased for you personally that you've got the means to do some serious work on a Pug, but I can't help hearing echoes of Dreamweaver's project - a no expense-spared modernisation in effect that ended in the purchase of an ST. Maybe your engine build putting flexibility first is the difference, but I'm not sure.

 

(edit: assuming you've not already done this and not clearly posted it) Before you get too bogged down in the mechanical minutiae why not spend a little time debating the finer points of your goal?

 

Edited May 12, 2009 by maturin23

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Respect Ian.

 

This will be a combination of what Eeyore & Sandy, plus a few others from this forum BELIEVE is best for the 205. It is not attempting to go into too many new areas although a bit of experimentation has been encouraged.

 

The goal is a 205 version of what the new Focus RS achieves. It has received outstanding reviews from what I've read, although my plan is to do it simpler, i.e. with 10% of the technology they's used/have access to.

 

You may feel this impossible, although I would say it's raw principles I'm focussing on (pun excused I hope) which is exactly where Caterhams and other kit cars successfully hit, as they are plain and simple and effective.

 

I don't believe I can state my goal any clearer. It's nothing radical by item, although it may be one of the first to put all of the right collection of road-going principles in place in one car. The Focus is just a comparison, saying what can be achieved with practically limitless funds, whereas I'm aiming for their goal with about £3-4k. It would be ridiculous spending any more as that would stop the car being a 205.

 

The final limitation I must work on is me, as a driver. This will require additional investment in building the skills to capitalize on the equipment, as I know that'll be as good as it can get. Any short falls will be on my part, so at least I know what needs improvement.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

As promised, here's a recent video of what the engine's currently delivering. It was difficult videoing on my own on not exactly straight roads, but this shows about 40mph in 3rd gear up to 110mph (indicated) with a lazy gear change into fifth strolling to 120-125mph.

 

It feels really good, whether it's quick in comparison or not.

 

http://s98.photobucket.com/albums/l251/DrS...rrent=Mi1-1.flv