Turbo Manifolds

[wracing 19]

Right guy’s I have been busy building my collection of turbo pugs. I have created what I think is a bit of a monster manifold I’m about to start building mine but there is a chance of a group buy.

 

To reduce costs I made the assumption most people have a welder.....so why not a 'weld your own exhaust manifold kit'??

 

The manifold that I have designed is for any 16v engine (mi16,s16,gti6,......) and you will be able to select from different flange styles

 

The flow data is available for people to make there own judgements.

 

Flange thickness is still open but I’m looking at around 8mm laser cut

 

The collector will be fabricated from 3mm leading to a weld bend to a turbo flange of your choice. (pics to come)

 

Price is anywhere from £150-£65 depending on volume and you will receive all the bends and sections pre cut, chamfered and ready for welding.

 

Also technical drawings will be included for ease of fabrication.

 

For a welded version it will be around £300

 

Specs:

 

Any 16v head flange

Any turbo flange

External waste gate provision at no extra cost

Steel construction

Flow data open source

Pulse delivery of an equal phase (which is the important thing not equal length runners)

Very low profile allowing space engine movement and exhaust downpipe

Low cost

41mm id primaries

 

 

Please show your interest for quantities and suggestions

 

if there is enough interest i will design and fab a 8v version.

[davepug205 7]

Oooo yes please!! would there be a stainless option?

 

P.s. a certain company call it the welders nightmare, it looks like its got its name for a good reason, so id want the welded version please.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[wracing 19]

Stainless may be an option depending on interest, with out naming names £300 vs £940 is a defo saving.

 

Also from what I’ve been able to ascertain this manifold has a higher efficiency in energy transfer due to the straight runner design (confirmed by cosmos)

 

By all means the welder’s nightmare looks amazing but I’m into saving every penny!!

[sounds of silence 2]

if you've ever seen a dp engineering manifold you would see where the money is and its a proven manifold and proven welding to take the heat and pressures etc and the manifolds are good for big power .

 

dont get me wrong not everyone wants to spend big money ' so these will make a good cheap alternative but if anyone was to be building a turbo engine to a good spec the dp manifolds are the way to go .

 

good to see someone making another option tho at fraction of the cost .

 

dave.

[wracing 19]

Also from what I’ve been able to ascertain this manifold has a higher efficiency in energy transfer due to the straight runner design (confirmed by cosmos)

 

That is where I got that statement from, I’ve computer simulated both manifolds next to each other, with some very interesting results. Does anyone know the legality of me posting my findings on the DP engineering manifold?

 

I’m not disputing the quality of there work they do look amazing.

[aCe 0]

i'm defintley interested, once you get your first one knocked up please post piks and il take it from there

[Batfink 201]

That is where I got that statement from, I’ve computer simulated both manifolds next to each other, with some very interesting results. Does anyone know the legality of me posting my findings on the DP engineering manifold?

 

I’m not disputing the quality of there work they do look amazing.

 

I dont see any legal issue as long as you are truthful. How did you copy the DP one?

[bales 1]

Pah COSMOS! You should be using Ansys! COSMOS is for kids

 

I might be interested in an 8V one.

[bales 1]

if you've ever seen a dp engineering manifold you would see where the money is and its a proven manifold and proven welding to take the heat and pressures etc and the manifolds are good for big power .

 

dont get me wrong not everyone wants to spend big money ' so these will make a good cheap alternative but if anyone was to be building a turbo engine to a good spec the dp manifolds are the way to go .

 

good to see someone making another option tho at fraction of the cost .

 

dave.

 

I'm sorry but thats rubbish, why do people assume that because its from a well established manufacturer then it must be amazing (not saying the DP ones aren't) and that someones personal design is therefore going to be nowhere near as good.

 

If you look at the designs they are very similar and exhaust design isn't a black art. Looking at the spec described there is no reason why it wouldn't be just as good as the DP mani, if you actually read a book on exhaust design its isn't that complicated along as you undersatnd the principles you are trying to emulate. I'm not saying stuff like F1 and proper race car exhausts are easy but thats the difference between chasing every last horsepower and test after test after test etc....with a large budget but I am pretty sure for a road car you could get 95% as good results with a good undertsanding and the right tools to do it.

 

At uni on our Forumula Student car we redesigned the exhaust for a Yamaha R6 engine to give greater torque than the standard one using CFD and Solidworks to model it and it performed consistently better than the OE exhaust even with stupid students designing and building it!

 

So I can't see any reason why a well designed turbo manifold like the above should be any worse than the DP one as it 'looks' right, the ID is in the right ballpark, it has had analysis with CFD using the right principles. So to me the only issue would be build quality....but thats upto who buys it or how good the welder is.

[M@tt 77]

put me down as interested, let me know when you get a confirmed price

 

Matt

[Tom Fenton 1,539]

It all looks good, a couple of comments from me

 

1) I'd make the head flange with expansion gaps in- one straight length like that can potentially expand quite a lot with the heat input you will get.

 

2) I'd also make it 10mm, it will pull less when welding.

 

3) I think mild steel may not be ideal- because of the carbon content it will be more prone to cracking especially in the welded areas (HAZ). Although more costly I'd investigate stainless- specifically 321 grade.

[whizzer71 0]

Id be up for 2 for 2.0ltr XU10j4r 16v's

 

[paulvancraen 0]

I'm also interested in the 8v version. Love to see you make one of those

 

Could you also fabricate the pieces in stainless steel?

[jackherer 543]

Does anyone know the legality of me posting my findings on the DP engineering manifold?

 

A lawyer?

 

If you aren't sure of the legal implications of posting something on here then please don't without seeking legal advice first.

[wracing 19]

my computer has been working flat out on floworks poor old thing these simulations arent simple with 8 input 4 outlets over a fan with a expontinal backpressure component! its chugging along.

 

looking at the 8v manifold would people prefer the turbo placement to be at the side, top or behind the engine?

 

im trying to get some quotes on stainless prices the bend are looking quite hard to get hold of!

 

im getting costings for both 8 and 10mm flanges the old reason i went 8mm is so the diy welder had a better chance of welding the 3mm primaries.

 

on the mi,si16 flange design the holes match the head and then exit into a larger volume to prevent flow reversion (increase cylinder emptying efficency), would people prefer larger holes say 28-30mm so you can port a taper? (see pic below)

 

as far as the dp engineering data i have a mani and measured it then simmed it. sent mail to dp to see if they are happy dont want no copyright infringments.

[paulvancraen 0]

Personally, I'd like the turbo behind the engine like the original turbo.

I've seen a great example somewhere on a french forum.

[tom_m 0]

an 8v manifold that didn't interfere with the servo or mc in a right hand drive car would be good start

[wracing 19]

Quite a few people have said they what an 8v manifold, ill keep you updated but the basic design is here

 

Spec (subject to change):

 

Equal length runners (by volume +-10%)

Staged pulse delivery

41mm id primaries

Lower profile that 2.0turbo manifold (ish)

Will clear mc (to be verified but its looking good)

Biggest for a behind the engine solution will be a t28 (maybe t3 :S)

10mm flanges (still undecided)

 

 

I’m having issues with the collector design if any one has any ideas please share!

Manifold flange dims aren’t perfect yet.

Drive shaft clearance with larger turbos to be confirmed

 

let me know what you think

 

 

Thanks

 

James

 

 

 

[tom_m 0]

i doubt i'd get my turbo that far down the back of the engine

[Rob Turbo 3]

That looks like it will end up fairly low down the block, will there still be room to get the oil drain to the top of the sump?

[James_R 3]

and change gear equally importantly??

 

I like the battery position myself

[wracing 19]

its not finished the turbo has to rise up about an inch and half its really hard to get anything but a log type manifold down the back of the engine. personally i do think that the 8v side mount is the best solution as you dont have as many heat soak issues. remember that it a t28 turbo so has quite a large frame compared with the tb25.

 

it clears the master cyl gear linkages still need the normal adjustments. turbo is high enough for an oil feed, ill draw an engine so you can see turbo positioning.

 

i started last night, a be1/3 paddle shift conversion.

 

ill get the 8v finished later and check the highlighted issues.

 

thanks guys

[tom_m 0]

this is the DP Love Collector Mk 1 on an XU10 turbo:

 

 

and this is a rather full engine bay:

 

 

if it's any help to you

 

personally i think you'll need the collector/flange to be much higher up to fit anything of a decent size down there.

Edited May 13, 2009 by tom_m

[sounds of silence 2]

I'm sorry but thats rubbish, why do people assume that because its from a well established manufacturer then it must be amazing (not saying the DP ones aren't) and that someones personal design is therefore going to be nowhere near as good.

 

If you look at the designs they are very similar and exhaust design isn't a black art. Looking at the spec described there is no reason why it wouldn't be just as good as the DP mani, if you actually read a book on exhaust design its isn't that complicated along as you undersatnd the principles you are trying to emulate. I'm not saying stuff like F1 and proper race car exhausts are easy but thats the difference between chasing every last horsepower and test after test after test etc....with a large budget but I am pretty sure for a road car you could get 95% as good results with a good undertsanding and the right tools to do it.

 

At uni on our Forumula Student car we redesigned the exhaust for a Yamaha R6 engine to give greater torque than the standard one using CFD and Solidworks to model it and it performed consistently better than the OE exhaust even with stupid students designing and building it!

 

So I can't see any reason why a well designed turbo manifold like the above should be any worse than the DP one as it 'looks' right, the ID is in the right ballpark, it has had analysis with CFD using the right principles. So to me the only issue would be build quality....but thats upto who buys it or how good the welder is.

 

i take it you havent had much dealings with pug 16v turbo conversions ??

 

the dp manifold is a very good design in the fact that we managed to squeeze a t4 roller bearing turbo into our 16v conversion with a full 3" downpipe and exhaust system , the positioning of the manifold is pretty much perfect allowing water pipes , oil pipes , boost pipes etc etc all fitted into a 205 engine bay is very hard going.

 

i cant see how you could simulate all the things above on a computer and make it spot on alot of trial and error will have to go into a design now just make up something on a computer

 

iv done a good few conversions with a few different manifolds and the dp one being the most expencive but also by FAR the best .

 

and am sorry i didnt go to uni and play on computer but i do these in real life day in day out !

[rapidmi 4]

 

i designed this and the computer said it will fit like a glove..................

 

As impressed as i am with your CAD skills, the long hard thruth is that even if this manifold does fit ......and take a a good sized turbo, how do you know theres going to be the correct space and clearance to take say, a 3 inch doownpipe along with boost pipes, water hoses etc etc

 

you get what you pay for in my oppionion, DP is the only way to go

 

Des