Close Ratio Gearbox

[andychalmers 0]

I have a 180bhp S16 205 rally car. The BE3 box is in the car & either fitted with a 5.1 or 5.3 CWP, also fitted with a ZF diff. It is supposed to be a close ratio gear kit.

Is there any way I can check the ratios without stripping?

Or by semi stripping it?

[Craigb 2]

I have a 180bhp S16 205 rally car. The BE3 box is in the car & either fitted with a 5.1 or 5.3 CWP, also fitted with a ZF diff. It is supposed to be a close ratio gear kit.

Is there any way I can check the ratios without stripping?

Or by semi stripping it?

 

have you got a trip meter fitted?

[Craigb 2]

Ignore that , Didn't quite think it through properly

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

I'm not quite sure what 'close ratio gear kit' you could have, it's more than likely close enough with a 5.1 or 5.3!

 

Is 1st unbearably short? If so it's probably a standard box. If 1st is relatively tall, and the revs don't drop significantly going to 2nd (compared to the other gears) then you may have a long 1st in there which probably means a Quaife/PTS gear kit.

 

I guess you could whip the plugs out, stick it up on stands, lock a front wheel and count the engine revolutions to wheel revolutions in certain gears, and work it out from that. Hope your ZF diff preload isn't too tight then ;-)

[vickiw106 1]

It sounds to me you have a later standard gti gearkit with a shorter final drive

 

I currently run a 4.93 final drive with a standard kit and its performs very similar to yours.

[Batfink 201]

if you remove the diff cover you will be able to see what the final drive is as it should have the ratio markings. Its been a while since i removed the end casing but you could see the fifth gear though i'm not sure you can see the ratio markings.

Most likely its a standard gearbox with that short a final drive as if it had a close ratio gearset you'd barely get over 80mph in fifth!

My close ratio box with a standard final drive tops out at 125mph

[andychalmers 0]

This box tops out at about 95mph with 15" 195 tyres but im not sure what revs as the rev counter is not working at the mo, in the process of getting working. I did a rallycross in it last yr at Blyton, on the start line 1st gear was pointless & even used 2nd to start off the line & still was to very low. Every gear feels very close but I car'nt really tell as its got such a short final drive. Im going to fit a 4.8CWP I already have to make it have a better top speed. This box is supposed to have a close ratio gear kit fitted & im 50/50 if it has or not, If its has'nt I will just build a new box & sell this 1 but keep the diff. But if it has a close ratio gear kit fitted I deffo want to keep it hence wanting to find out how to check it.

I guess I best learnt to strip a box & find out. Any basic info on stripping a box is welcome however I do have hayne gearbox book if i get stuck

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

I'd be on the pessimistic side and suspect it's just a standard set of ratios from the BE range, but with a real short final drive.

 

The Quaiffe kit, for example, is nothing special in terms of ratios on most gears except 1st. The big problem with the standard 1.6 or 1.9 box is that, with a 4.8 or higher diff, 1st is mind-crunchingly short. The Quaife kit gives you a long first, the ratios being :-

 

2.692, 1.933, 1.444, 1.143, 0.957

 

...while a standard 1.9 box would be :-

 

2.92, 1.85, 1.36, 1.07, 0.87

 

However, you can build a hybrid box out of a gti6 3/4/5th gearset (with a bit of work) and get those top 3 ratios to 1.41, 1.15 and .95 which are near as darn it the Quaife ratios, for a LOT less money.

 

Assuming a 2.92 1st gear ratio, 7200rpm rev limit and 15" rims then your standard 1.9 box, if that's what it is, would top out at 33mph in 1st on the rev limiter.

If it's a 1.6 box, 1st is slightly shorter, at 3.31, but despite people going on about this constantly as a downside, let's face it - it means a top speed of 29mph with a 5.1 diff, so it's still bloody short. The problem is the 5.1 exacerbates the problem and reduces the difference of the ratio being short. Even a Quaife kit will give you the 2.692 ratio on first, that's still only 36mph.

 

Move to a 4.4 final drive and you're talking 44mph with the Quaife long first, 39 with a standard 1.9 or or 34 mph with a 1.6 - a range of 10 mph from worst to best, compared with 7mph difference on the 5.1

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, irrespective of the gear kit in there, a 5.1 is going to be short full-stop.

 

The one thing I miss with my hybrid box is that long first that you get with the original PTS gear kits or Quaife kit, but for the expense I'll live without it all the other ratios are easily made close by using standard production gears, so I wouldn't feel too disheartened if you do find you only have a standard box on a short diff.

 

EDIT: If it *is* a ZF diff, then this is further suggestion that it was built to original PTS Grp.A specs and so supports the idea that it has a close ratio kit in it. So like you say, all a bit 50/50 really !!

Edited March 24, 2009 by brumster

[Guest 80wya]

is it much work to fit a 4:4 CWP?

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

is it much work to fit a 4:4 CWP?

 

With any CWP change, it's not the crown wheel that's the problem - that's just bolted to the diff - but the 'pinion' gear is machined onto the end of the output shaft of the gearbox. So any pinion change is a strip-down of the box

Edited March 28, 2009 by brumster

[Guest 80wya]

thanks, just found out that bit. shouldnt be a problem tho.. shall crack on once my quaife lsd arrives!

[tony perks 1]

I'd love to know where my 1st/2nd came from, as its: 2.92, 1.7, 1.48, 1.31, .87, cant find it listed any where and ideas?, oh and i run it with a 4.4:1, soon to be 4.7 when it arrives.

[welshpug 1,661]

do you know the actual number of teeth on them? 2.92 sounds standard.

[tony perks 1]

do you know the actual number of teeth on them? 2.92 sounds standard.

 

 

sorry for the delay, 1st is 13-38

2nd 20-34

3rd 25-37

4th 29-38

 

the only problem i have now is my 3rd 4th wont fit the new main shaft as it has a double spline not a spline at the top and a smooth section at the bottom, i think what i need is BE4 3rd 4th can any one confirm and any body got any?

[alync406 4]

What is the crown wheel and pinion you are using out of? If they are out of a BE4 you will need 3rd & 4th out of a BE4.In a 406 1.8 the ratios are the same as the 205 ones or very close.You will need a 5th out of a BE4 also as the splines are different on it too.The 5th in the 406 1.8 is normally long but you can get a shorter one,I bought a new 5th gear from peugeot and it was not as expensive as I thought it would be.

[tony perks 1]

What is the crown wheel and pinion you are using out of? If they are out of a BE4 you will need 3rd & 4th out of a BE4.In a 406 1.8 the ratios are the same as the 205 ones or very close.You will need a 5th out of a BE4 also as the splines are different on it too.The 5th in the 406 1.8 is normally long but you can get a shorter one,I bought a new 5th gear from peugeot and it was not as expensive as I thought it would be.

 

 

What about a 406 2l turbo box will this be ok?, as i know of an engine and box.

[welshpug 1,661]

that uses the ME or ML gearbox not a BE.

[tony perks 1]

that uses the ME or ML gearbox not a BE.

never seen an ma on a xu10 j2 turbo before..............................and the box on it is a BE.

[welshpug 1,661]

the engine is probably in a 205 then, I never said MA

[tony perks 1]

the engine is probably in a 205 then, I never said MA

Duh sorry i misread saw m..... and jumped to conclusions the engine is not in anything yet, but i have access to the box.

[alync406 4]

I dont think a 406 2l turbo box will do,I am fairly sure it would have to be a BE3 box in it.The BE4 boxes would only be in the facelift cars I think from the middle of 99' on or maybe a bit newer.The one I got was out of a 2002 1.8l.

[tony perks 1]

I dont think a 406 2l turbo box will do,I am fairly sure it would have to be a BE3 box in it.The BE4 boxes would only be in the facelift cars I think from the middle of 99' on or maybe a bit newer.The one I got was out of a 2002 1.8l.

 

I cant remember but i think the car was a R reg, that the engine and box came from, what are the external differences be4 to be 3, and what were thay fitted to?

[alync406 4]

I'd say that a R reg would deffinately be a BE3.The two boxes look the same really externally.BE3 or BE4 is stamped in the casing somewhere but can be hard to find,it is near the mounting on some of them anyway.

[welshpug 1,661]

if its was a normal XU10 or XUD9TE maybe, but not the XU10J2TE from what servicebox suggests.

[tony perks 1]

if its was a normal XU10 or XUD9TE maybe, but not the XU10J2TE from what servicebox suggests.

 

 

Ok no good for me buit i found a BE4 from a xantia 2.1 td and for your info guys it had a 4.43 diff, 1st 38-10: 3.8:1, 2nd 43-23: 1.86:1, 3rd 31-27: 1.48, 4th 37-45: .82:1, and 5th 31-47: .65:1 wow tall 5th!, so still on the hunt for the right 3rd 4th!!