Head Bolts & Spacers

[Pob 1]

Hi,

 

Headbolt spacers... When removing the headbolt the spacers fell off and I didn't have time to see what was actually on the camside rear headbolt. Is it the big spacer and a small one? So two spacers on one headbolt?

 

Also tightening sequence. I tried searching for it as I 've came across a topic about it awhile back, but carn't find it now. Is the haynes method the way to go? I hate tightening up headbolts.... Oh, haynes suggest lightly oiling the threads, I thought it was just the bolt shoulders to stop the creaking/jumping when tightening

 

Thanks,

Dan

[large 33]

Big and small in the back left.

[Pob 1]

Big and small in the back left.

 

Thanks, I was wondering why I had too many small spacers for the number of bolts

 

Dan

[Stu 18]

Yeah put a drop of oil on the threads and the underside of the bolt.

 

If you can, run an old head bolt down the hole to clear the threads out prior to using the new bolts.

 

I generally avoid the 300 single angular torque, i prefer to do it in stages with a rest inbetween.

 

So typically, i put the initial torques on, then go 150 on the angular.

 

Leave it overnight, then apply the last 150.

 

Hope this helps!

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

I also do the angular in stages- usually 3 lots of 90 deg, then a final "tweak".

[Stu 18]

I wonder what our final angular torque equates to in lbft?

[DamirGTI 342]

Two spacers like this :

 

 

As for tightening torque I do them like this :

 

1. stage - 30Nm

2. stage - 55Nm

3. stage - loosen each bolt one at a time 1/8th turn and retighten to 55Nm

4. stage - 80Nm

5. stage - 95Nm (70lbf ft)

 

After a few hours i go over the bolts one more time - undone each bolt 1/4 turn and tight back to 95Nm ...

 

Damir

[Pob 1]

Thanks for all the replies. I'll probably go with Damir's method, have you done a few like this? I much prefer to use a torque wrench than a angle gauge

 

Thanks for the pic Damir,

Dan

[DamirGTI 342]

Yes , i've been using this method for some time now and never ever had any problems with blown/leaky HG afterwards .. just check/measure the liner protrusion carefully , toughly clean block mating surface , skim the head , buy new head bolts , apply some grease on the bolt threads and you'll be fine .

 

(this method was recommended to me by Guy Croft , race engine builder , for this XU9 engines both the 8V and 16V)

 

Damir

[Pob 1]

Yes , i've been using this method for some time now and never ever had any problems with blown/leaky HG afterwards .. just check/measure the liner protrusion carefully , toughly clean block mating surface , skim the head , buy new head bolts , apply some grease on the bolt threads and you'll be fine .

 

(this method was recommended to me by Guy Croft , race engine builder , for this XU9 engines both the 8V and 16V)

 

Damir

 

 

Any specific grease? Why do you need to measure the liner protrusion? The head is ready to go on, the head has been skimmed and I've got new bolts.

 

Thanks,

Dan

[James_R 3]

I usually go with

 

25lbs

50lbs

75lbs

 

then recheck after first 20mins running.

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

As for tightening torque I do them like this :

 

1. stage - 30Nm

2. stage - 55Nm

3. stage - loosen each bolt one at a time 1/8th turn and retighten to 55Nm

4. stage - 80Nm

5. stage - 95Nm (70lbf ft)

 

After a few hours i go over the bolts one more time - undone each bolt 1/4 turn and tight back to 95Nm ...

 

Damir

You shouldn't need to do this on the later style of Torx headbolts, they are stretch bolts & should only really be torqued up once to the correct torque they should be fine.

 

The last head I did I used the Autodata method which is;

• 60Nm.
  
• Slacken.
  
• Retighten to 20Nm then 100' each in turn.
  

Done me fine so far for about 10k & 10 trackdays or so,

 

I was also advised to set my liner clearance to 0.3mm iirc but thats just because I was building the engine from scratch.

 

If you haven't had the bottom end apart you can't check the liner protrusion because of the liner seals. The clearances should be done without them fitted.

 

Graham.

[Pob 1]

You shouldn't need to do this on the later style of Torx headbolts, they are stretch bolts & should only really be torqued up once to the correct torque they should be fine.

 

The last head I did I used the Autodata method which is;

• 60Nm.
  
• Slacken.
  
• Retighten to 20Nm then 100' each in turn.
  

Done me fine so far for about 10k & 10 trackdays or so,

 

I was also advised to set my liner clearance to 0.3mm iirc but thats just because I was building the engine from scratch.

 

If you haven't had the bottom end apart you can't check the liner protrusion because of the liner seals. The clearances should be done without them fitted.

 

Graham.

 

I haven't touched the bottom end or moved the crank with the head off, so I can just stick the head back on after cleaning up the surfaces.

 

Now I'm totally unsure which method to choose lol. Is there anything wrong with the haynes method? 300 degrees does seem alot in comparasion to other peoples suggestions

 

Thanks,

Dan

[DamirGTI 342]

Well , each to his own i guess .. but as fore me one is sure - i simply do_not_like OE method and i'll never ever use it again (i need to take two pack of Valium pills when i do them by OE method ) as me thinks that OE method puts way too much stress on the head bolts/block threads and it simply isn't needed that much to make proper seal , 95Nm total will be just enough for M11 head bolts being stretch type or not no matter .. my engine is on 11.1 CR so if this 95Nm was too little torque the HG would surely blow long time ago ..

 

I don't always do the final settle - loosen 1/4 + 95Nm , mostly i gust go trough all stages up to 5-th and that's it ..

 

However i always check/mesure the liner protrusion (with and without the O rings fitted no matter ..) above the block just in order to see/check if theres an significant difference in heights in between the liners , and the block mating surface to liner walls as well .. (if one has sunk too deep down the block then it may need new O ring as the head may or may not seal it properly when bolted on top of it ..)

 

Damir

Edited February 28, 2009 by DamirGTI

[Alteran 1]

You shouldn't need to do this on the later style of Torx headbolts, they are stretch bolts & should only really be torqued up once to the correct torque they should be fine.

 

The last head I did I used the Autodata method which is;

• 60Nm.
  
• Slacken.
  
• Retighten to 20Nm then 100' each in turn.
  

Done me fine so far for about 10k & 10 trackdays or so,

 

I was also advised to set my liner clearance to 0.3mm iirc but thats just because I was building the engine from scratch.

 

If you haven't had the bottom end apart you can't check the liner protrusion because of the liner seals. The clearances should be done without them fitted.

 

Graham.

 

 

Ditto. I put my cylinder head on last night and used the Autodata information. I always use the O.E or Autodata method. I theory that they've researched this and have probably spent more money than i make in 10 years getting the information right so i'm sticking with their figures. The only variation i made was the angular torque, I marked the 300 degree point but turned each bolt one after the other about 30 degrees at a time until i hit the mark.

 

Each to their own though, if you Damir are happy with your method then keep using it!

[Pob 1]

Ditto. I put my cylinder head on last night and used the Autodata information. I always use the O.E or Autodata method. I theory that they've researched this and have probably spent more money than i make in 10 years getting the information right so i'm sticking with their figures. The only variation i made was the angular torque, I marked the 300 degree point but turned each bolt one after the other about 30 degrees at a time until i hit the mark.

 

Each to their own though, if you Damir are happy with your method then keep using it!

 

Thanks for all the help, I'm still a little undecided but I carn't do anymore for the time being. I cleaned up the surfaces today, placed the gasket on the block and found I've lost the big and one of the small spacers... I have a feeling I binned them with the old gasket, Oh and I lost my angle gauge... Doing well aren't I

 

The spacers I need is the 25mm and 10mm? I think they did two didn't they? a 23mm and 25mm, 25mm has the small ridges on the outside? I have a diesel one, but I think this is too big, its about 28-30mm

 

 

Thanks,

Dan

Edited March 2, 2009 by Pob

[DamirGTI 342]

This big one (but do note here on the pic the smaller top spacer is missing !) :

 

 

.. and this smaller one :

 

 

One more time - they need to be fitted both the big and the small one on the head bolt which is above the water pump .

 

Damir

[Pob 1]

This big one (but do note here on the pic the smaller top spacer is missing !) :

 

 

.. and this smaller one :

 

 

One more time - they need to be fitted both the big and the small one on the head bolt which is above the water pump .

 

Damir

 

Thanks for the info... you seem to have pictures of everything! So there is just one type of big spacer?

 

Thanks Damir,

Dan

[matty_gti 20]

Thanks for the info... you seem to have pictures of everything! So there is just one type of big spacer?

 

Thanks Damir,

Dan

 

He does indeed, but he does alot of work . And yes there is only one type of big spacer.

 

Just to add my 2p worth, this is the method I used from Puma Racing...

 

"Finally rather than use the Peugeot stretch method I tighten these bolts in three stages - 25, 50 and then 75 ft lbs or an additional 1/4 turn whichever comes first. Some bolts will take the full 75 ft lbs and some won't. This loads them sufficiently to clamp the gasket properly but doesn't unduly stretch them and allows them to be reused. I also find it a good idea to tighten them fully, leave the engine for 24 hours to allow any gasket compression to take place and then retighten them one at a time in the normal sequence i.e. starting from the centre of the head and working out. Undo a bolt, tighten back to 50 ft lbs and then to 75 ft lbs or 1/4 turn whichever comes first and repeat for the other bolts. Bolts which wouldn't take the full 75 ft lbs the first time often will once the gasket has sat a while under compression"

Edited March 3, 2009 by matty_gti

[DamirGTI 342]

So there is just one type of big spacer?

 

Requested info was sent via PM

 

Damir

[Alteran 1]

Dan if you can't find your angle gauge then you can do the 300 degree angle without the gauge. (Providing you use this method). Using some touch-up paint or tippex, just mark a line on the head and another on the bolt. A full turn is obviously 360 degrees, (six points on a torx bolt), 300 degrees is five points on the torx bolt. I find this way very accurate as you can visually see if you haven't done the full turn. Sometimes I find angle gauges can be be tricky as you have to do the turn in one go, (Which is difficult the tighter the bolt/nut) and the twist of the extension bar can give you a false reading.

 

Hope this helps mate,

 

Liam.