Eliminating Or Reducing Understeer

[TT205 42]

bit kill turn in compared with a similar 205 width beam.

 

 

^^

 

What does that mean?

[Cameron 16]

Means the reaction when you turn the wheel isn't quite as sharp as before. Could probably be countered with a bit of toe out though.

[TT205 42]

so 'bit' should be 'but' ...

[taylorspug 7]

Yes.

[Baz 421]

I've found a bigger rear ARB a fairly big help, although dampens the transition between grip and oversteer, you have to be a little bit more on the ball when it does go, but the turn-in and grip is immensely proportionate overall! Not so much on the loose or damp though, although even in which case suits my driving style, you can adapt to the way the car handles, but one 205 can be very different to another, sounds like the OP's is fairly low, not how i like them.

 

The biggest piece of advice i'd give is to get used to the way the car handles, if it power understeers, modulate the throttle coming out of corners etc as already said, adapt your driving style to suit, i drive 205's, particularly std width/height/sprung ones with the rear end, using it to my advantage, very much on the throttle. Perhaps change the ride height too, this alone changes the way in which the weight can shift and transfer, causing the car to handle differently.

 

It hit home how much driving style & technique can differ recently after i double drove my 1.6 on a 'gymkhana' (basically like a SV Stage Rally) with a friend who also has a 205, but very differently set-up to mine. (again a fairly std 1.6, no rear ARB for loose events, and a std GTi beam with Leda dampers for sealed surfaces) He has a very different driving style to mine, but is alot more experienced than i, yet he kept commenting how i wasn't on the throttle alot coming out of corners, which is when i started to notice how he was adversely on the throttle too much, like a switch, spinning the inside wheel, using left foot (properly, while still on the power, not just to settle the car but also to scrub speed, & keep the fron inline, stopping understeer etc) braking, yet i was seemingly 'ragged', allowing the rear of the car to step, left foot dabbing the brake to induce oversteer, using the handbrake and generally using the weight transfer to my advantage to set the car up for a bend, or use it to actually turn the car to the direction i then wanted to go, but generally much smoother with the throttle, whereas he was very tidy and to the 'line' yet was more aggressive on the throttle in those vital places. I think i wasn't the only one that was surprised when i came home along way ahead of him, taking a 2nd overall even on one of the stages. He also killed my tyres which can also go very far as to tell you about driving style & technique!

Edited February 18, 2009 by Baz

[Henry 1.9GTi 36]

as above about driving style, I found the hardest thing for me was having the balls to let the 205 go into a corner 5-10mph faster than I felt 'safe' at. The car still gripped to my amazment and very progressively tended towards oversteer (no throttle) getting on the throttle towards mid-exit of the corner blanced the car and then you just give more throttle untill your WOT and by that time your going straight again. Don't be tempted to turn in slow and power round the WHOLE corner as it will just understeer away. Try and practice using the brakes to turn it in, trail braking. Very effective but difficult to master, again speed is usually a function of budget confidence and driver technique

 

so V8ish whats it to be after all this banter?

[Batfink 201]

I've found a bigger rear ARB a fairly big help, although dampens the transition between grip and oversteer, you have to be a little bit more on the ball when it does go, but the turn-in and grip is immensely proportionate overall! Not so much on the loose or damp though, although even in which case suits my driving style, you can adapt to the way the car handles, but one 205 can be very different to another, sounds like the OP's is fairly low, not how i like them.

 

The biggest piece of advice i'd give is to get used to the way the car handles, if it power understeers, modulate the throttle coming out of corners etc as already said, adapt your driving style to suit, i drive 205's, particularly std width/height/sprung ones with the rear end, using it to my advantage, very much on the throttle. Perhaps change the ride height too, this alone changes the way in which the weight can shift and transfer, causing the car to handle differently.

 

It hit home how much driving style & technique can differ recently after i double drove my 1.6 on a 'gymkhana' (basically like a SV Stage Rally) with a friend who also has a 205, but very differently set-up to mine. (again a fairly std 1.6, no rear ARB for loose events, and a std GTi beam with Leda dampers for sealed surfaces) He has a very different driving style to mine, but is alot more experienced than i, yet he kept commenting how i wasn't on the throttle alot coming out of corners, which is when i started to notice how he was adversely on the throttle too much, like a switch, spinning the inside wheel, using left foot (properly, while still on the power, not just to settle the car but also to scrub speed, & keep the fron inline, stopping understeer etc) braking, yet i was seemingly 'ragged', allowing the rear of the car to step, left foot dabbing the brake to induce oversteer, using the handbrake and generally using the weight transfer to my advantage to set the car up for a bend, or use it to actually turn the car to the direction i then wanted to go, but generally much smoother with the throttle, whereas he was very tidy and to the 'line' yet was more aggressive on the throttle in those vital places. I think i wasn't the only one that was surprised when i came home along way ahead of him, taking a 2nd overall even on one of the stages. He also killed my tyres which can also go very far as to tell you about driving style & technique!

 

It also means that even with a good car on your driveway you can still have little understanding of car setup, dynamics or driving technique

[niklas 1]

If you know average theory, you get an excellent starting point and you understand what to change when it just isn't perfect.

So theory, if understood and used correctly, is valuable to save time and money!

 

From my point of view, if you're a driver that needs confidence then a well-balanced RWD is a better choice. FWD needs to be driven in a more "dangerous" fashion to deliver decent lap times.

But it's well rewarding when you get there!

[TT205 42]

Just going back to the original title though, if we are simply wanting to reduce understeer, as someone else has said - simply upping the rear arb diameter cannot be beaton for ££'s vs effect

[NeilGTi85 5]

The last trackday it had spanking new Eagle F1's on so tyres can be discounted (unless the size was too big 205/50/15?)

 

Having brand new tyres is not going to help, also what wheel's are you using as the tyre width is quite bigger than standard 195?

 

Neil

[taylorspug 7]

Just going back to the original title though, if we are simply wanting to reduce understeer, as someone else has said - simply upping the rear arb diameter cannot be beaton for ££'s vs effect

 

Yes the rear ARB cannot be beaten pound for pound IMO, it does exactly what you want, its extremely good at reducing understeer- job done!

 

Tbh id say any negative effects are neglegable too, ive certainly not been bothered by any, it just made the car an all round better drive.

Edited February 19, 2009 by taylorspug

[Cameron 16]

Oh, something that hasn't been mentioned yet (as far as I remember anyway) what about trying some semi-slick tyres? They made a huge difference to the handling due to the lower profile and thicker sidewalls, and a noticeable improvement in cornering speed. For the benefits, they are definitely worth the money in my opinion, and contrary to popular belief pretty good in the wet too.

[James_R 3]

they're better i the wet, just not standing water, or when they're cold.

 

gives comical wheels cocking too (can i say that)

[niklas 1]

Oh, something that hasn't been mentioned yet (as far as I remember anyway) what about trying some semi-slick tyres? They made a huge difference to the handling due to the lower profile and thicker sidewalls, and a noticeable improvement in cornering speed. For the benefits, they are definitely worth the money in my opinion, and contrary to popular belief pretty good in the wet too.

 

I agree fully!

Semi-slicks are underrated. Driving on track on "normal" tyres is a complete waste!

 

Driving on semi-slicks brings up two important things:

1. Grip - While the grip is improved a lot this usually tends to make the 205 more understeering.

2. Camber - To really take advantage of all the grip from the tyre, it's important to keep the tyre patch completely flat and fully in contact with the tarmac. But the more grip, the faster we can go, the more the car will roll, etc...

[Cameron 16]

Very true, although you do get slightly less roll and therefore camber change (at the rear mostly) thanks to the stiff sidewalls. I've got A032s - soft fronts and supersoft rears and it's really nicely balanced imo. I do still suffer from power understeer if I'm over-zealous with the throttle thanks to the open diff but like many people have said it just takes a little care with the controls.

[Baz 421]

Be careful with stickier rubber though, if your suspension setup's not up to it, there can be an adverse effect to having lots more grip - bodyroll, literally the whole car rolling...

[Cameron 16]

True, you do need stiffer springs to make the most of sticky rubber!

[TT205 42]

Be careful with stickier rubber though, if your suspension setup's not up to it, there can be an adverse effect to having lots more grip - bodyroll, literally the whole car rolling...

 

 

And even when the suspension IS up to it if you take too much kerb!

 

[Anthony 1,003]

That's an "oh s**t" moment if ever I saw one - good work by the photographer though!

 

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned that's worth trying is removing one (NOT both) of the front droplinks to effectively disable the front anti-roll bar. That will normally improve traction on the front as it won't be trying to lift the weight off the inside wheel and allow it to spin up under power, but if you don't have sufficient front spring rate you risk a somewhat mismatched front-rear handling balance.

[taylorspug 7]

I dont run a front ARB, and find it very nice. Firstly i dont eat through a set of droplinks every year, which is good. Also improves mid and corner exit grip and traction, although it tends to make the steering feel a little light on turn in. This was all with an open diff when i had one.

[Cameron 16]

Another option is to remove as much weight from up high as possible and paint it on the floor. 'Tis the only proper way to combat all this weight transfer and body roll malarkey, but its very fiddly and often expensive.